My Turn

[DukeOfDeath]

So Outlaws finally filled up and I started off with a bang getting dealt high pairs and suited face cards and some high As left and right, betting them aggressively, and getting either paid off or callers until the callers got scared away on the river. I almost prefer my good hands to be fewer and farther between so I don't welcome more people to a flop and increase my chances of what came next. This was the blow:

Everleaf Gaming Game #306137944
***** Hand history for game #306137944 *****
Blinds 10/20 NL Hold'em - 2011/09/10 - 17:14:52
Table 2
Seat 5
Total number of players: 5
Seat 1: lahambra2 ( 910 Chips )
Seat 2: telboy ( 840 Chips )
Seat 3: buck333 ( 960 Chips )
Seat 4: DukeOfDeath ( 1115 Chips )
Seat 5: cowboys1 ( 1175 Chips )
lahambra2: posts 10 Chips]
telboy: posts 20 Chips]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to DukeOfDeath ]
buck333 folds
DukeOfDeath 60 Chips]
cowboys1 folds
lahambra2 folds
telboy 40 Chips]
** Dealing Flop ** ]
telboy checks
DukeOfDeath: 75 Chips]
telboy 75 Chips]
** Dealing Turn ** ]
telboy checks
DukeOfDeath: 150 Chips]
telboy 705 Chips]
DukeOfDeath 555 Chips]
** Dealing River ** ]
telboy shows ] a flush, ace high
DukeOfDeath shows ] a flush, king high
telboy wins 1690 chips from main pot with a flush, ace high ]

Was I wrong to call? Obviously I respect terrence's play. But also I know I have a somewhat aggressive (at the very least tight agressive) image and today I was being LAG. So do you think a J, T, 9, or 5 (of diamonds of course) was in his range? Or do you think he only could be beating me in this spot. I feel like I snap called too fast for sure. Don't know if I would have folded if I thought more. I was getting 2:1, but I'm not sure that's good enough. It's hard not to see the ACTUAL hand (that he for sure had the A) and be results oriented. I just wonder though if he has the A any less than 1/3 of the time (especially considering I was being very actiony).

Also should I have checked behind on the turn? Obviously K high flush in position with a opponent playing passively seems to be the best hand a LOT of the time. But is betting the best line? I had a loose image and could possibly get a worse hand to call. I don't know though, would be a tough call with anything weaker than K high flush. I mean if he doesn't have a diamond or at least trips looking for a boat, it just straight up forces a fold. If he has the A (which is slim but with the way he's smooth calling, a little less slim) he's got me drawing dead. Maybe a check and call or value bet on the river would have been best? Just need some feedback (like I always give future on his hands).

Either way it was a sick move by the dealer, seems like cold decks are prevalently used (keyword seems, not making claims like curbcowboy here). I shoved AJ UTG next hand to make it look like I was tilting (and probably actually tilting to some degree too) and get a call by a weaker hand (since I'm down to <11 BB). Get called by Buck's 88 in BB and am the first to leave the Outlaws game I've been waiting for for so long. Oh well, dealers are spotty.

P.S. Still want some feedback (on both the question of should I have bet and on the should I have called)... And try to give advice based on my situation without knowing for sure he has any certain cards. Even if it's "yeah what a stupid call. you sure are a donk, DoD!!!" I still want some thoughts.

Thanks,
Duke

[telboy]

soz duke,your min raise allowed me in the hand,and i flopped the nut flush,my nextaction was to check and see how much i could take from you,you played the next bet wisely and i flat called ,with the fourth diamond out ,and holding the K you must have been happy knowing only the ace could beat you .still i checked into you hopefull of a big bet ,you still made a rather small bet in my opinion which i raised you all in.
just bad luck m8 in my opinion,hope it changes soon for you gl on tables

[DukeOfDeath]

Originally Posted by telboy

soz duke,your min raise allowed me in the hand,and i flopped the nut flush,my nextaction was to check and see how much i could take from you,you played the next bet wisely and i flat called ,with the fourth diamond out ,and holding the K you must have been happy knowing only the ace could beat you .still i checked into you hopefull of a big bet ,you still made a rather small bet in my opinion which i raised you all in.
just bad luck m8 in my opinion,hope it changes soon for you gl on tables

Thanks for the encouragement. First the raise was 3X BB not minimum, which is standard, but of course it does still let AJs into the pot (esp considering I'd been giving a lot of action). And honestly for what you had, you played beautifully (and likely the exact way I would have).

I guess my question is would I have been better to check the turn (in general. in this specific case it's just an obvious "yes")? Also would I have been smart to fold to your raise even with K high flush? Obviously if you have the A the answer is yes. But I guess I can ask you yourself (if you care to answer): do you think you would make a similar move with a lower diamond or any other type of hand on that board?

[DukeOfDeath]

Thanks for responding by the way. I would have settled for anyone's opinions, let alone straight from the horse's mouth (and I mean horse in a purely idiomatic way)

[CaptainSandy]

Duke, you were unlucky (both times).

You do have a tendency to over analyse things sometimes.

You played it right, Telboy played it right - the cards made Tel the winner.

Even the best player will not win every hand, no-where near; poker is much more enjoyable when you realise sh*t happens, lol.

[DukeOfDeath]

Originally Posted by CaptainSandy

Duke, you were unlucky (both times).

You do have a tendency to over analyse things sometimes.

You played it right, Telboy played it right - the cards made Tel the winner.

Even the best player will not win every hand, no-where near; poker is much more enjoyable when you realise sh*t happens, lol.

I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree with you, captain sanderson.

First my tone is nowhere near a tone of complaining. I only put it in "victory and bad beat stories" because that's where future and others put their hands where we look at it strategically.

Second I don't over analyze things. I analyze more than most people do, but to say it's overanalyzing implies a referrence point. Just because I analyze more than you doesn't make it overanazlyzing in general. Sorry that sounds very defensive, but in a way it is. You know I love playing with you and chatting on tables, but you have a way of being very short with people just because they don't see things exactly like you.

Finally I play poker for fun. I am not a pro. However this doesn't stop me from wanting to improve my game. A way to do this is to strategize. While I can do this a lot on my own, there are plenty others on this site (Fozzy, future, BBOB, sternswiss, ulti, roo, etc etc the list goes on forever) that do talk strategy, and I like to get their opinions (and give them mine) to improve each others' games. I realize not everyone falls in this category (including apparently you). But if you look at any thread in the strategy corner (or any thread period) they get a 100 views for every reply they get. Not everyone is into thinking too hard about poker, they like to keep it fun. And that's perfectly fine. I don't expect anything from them. I don't comment on everything I see. Some people post things repeatedly that I have no interest in. I ignore it and don't think any less of the people.

In general I posted this with a positive attitude. And I realize you weren't being aggressive (i mean you put a lol in there even), but it was still a little condescending. Sorry I had to get a little defensive.

[future2112]

Hi duke, just spotted the thread...

Lets take into consideration the game you was playing. It was outlaws and not any other games like bc where players tend to play starting hands more oftern than not. Usually from my experience when playing outlaws i find players tend to play more tighter than usual and only play and bet with good solid hands.
Also we need to consider the types of players that play outlaws.. generally very good and tricky customers.

So onto your hand. based on the fact it was outlaws your initial bet was ok for me, not too big not to small, just right to get some action. The problem here though the action came from Telboy. Im sure Telboy wont mind me saying this but from experience and having a reasonable read on his style of play, when playing Telboy, especially in outlaws, if he playes into a raise he usually has very good cards.
So taking that into consideration, the flop being as it was i feel your bet of 75 was another good bet after telboys check. i would have put him a straight draw at this point or hit a pair with the queen. But i would have been very wary of that check and probably of followed suit and checked also.
Now we have the turn card which put you in a good position holding K flush. The chances of Tel holding 4/5 or 10/9 of diamonds are very slim, but an Ace of diamonds most possibly due to Tels follow up call after the flop. Standard flat call if the bet was low enough to do so.
for the river card i see it as a loose end card not making much difference to the hands in play.
As for the call to make at this point was a very difficult one indead. What call to make here would depend on stack size i guess, and being slightly better than Telboy at this point the 150 bet was bit cheap in my opinion. Either all-in or check. Not knowing that you was already beat at the fold your play so far for me was pretty good. But tels was better and he pushed at the river. If it was me knowing i still had a fair few chips to play with considering the game played, personally i would have given tel the benefit of the doubt and folded.
If it would have been any other player than Telboy, one i would consider a rather loose player then yes to call the all-in was the correct play.

Overall i feel you played the hand well, duke. Steady and drawing chips, but Telboy played a very good trap on you. It happens and when holding KK and hitting k flush it was a hand that was very hard to get away from.
fut.

[CaptainSandy]

Originally Posted by DukeOfDeath

I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree with you, captain sanderson.

First my tone is nowhere near a tone of complaining. I only put it in "victory and bad beat stories" because that's where future and others put their hands where we look at it strategically.

Second I don't over analyze things. I analyze more than most people do, but to say it's overanalyzing implies a referrence point. Just because I analyze more than you doesn't make it overanazlyzing in general. Sorry that sounds very defensive, but in a way it is. You know I love playing with you and chatting on tables, but you have a way of being very short with people just because they don't see things exactly like you.

Finally I play poker for fun. I am not a pro. However this doesn't stop me from wanting to improve my game. A way to do this is to strategize. While I can do this a lot on my own, there are plenty others on this site (Fozzy, future, BBOB, sternswiss, ulti, roo, etc etc the list goes on forever) that do talk strategy, and I like to get their opinions (and give them mine) to improve each others' games. I realize not everyone falls in this category (including apparently you). But if you look at any thread in the strategy corner (or any thread period) they get a 100 views for every reply they get. Not everyone is into thinking too hard about poker, they like to keep it fun. And that's perfectly fine. I don't expect anything from them. I don't comment on everything I see. Some people post things repeatedly that I have no interest in. I ignore it and don't think any less of the people.

In general I posted this with a positive attitude. And I realize you weren't being aggressive (i mean you put a lol in there even), but it was still a little condescending. Sorry I had to get a little defensive.

Blimey, I've just seen this post by Duke.

Talk about an over reaction to a good natured comment.

I didn't say you were complaining.
5'10" is not that short.
My original statement is correct, I suspect you realise that which is why you protest just a little too much.

[OP66fozzy]

Duke, you know the odds, it is pretty remote Tel was holding the Ad, even more remote he had cards to give him a straight flush.

You had to play the way you did, I'd guess 80-90% of the time you would take the pot down, just unlucky to run in to the Ad. Even if you respect a player, where are you going to draw the line ???? As you have posted before, by calling, you now have additional information.

Credit to Tel also, he played it well on the flop to disguise his hand ( always easy to do when you hit the nut flush, though some people make it look difficult !!! )

You and Sandy need to shake hands over cyberspace and get on with the poker, both of you keep posting as you see fit....

[CaptainSandy]

[DukeOfDeath]

Originally Posted by future2112

Hi duke, just spotted the thread...

Lets take into consideration the game you was playing. It was outlaws and not any other games like bc where players tend to play starting hands more oftern than not. Usually from my experience when playing outlaws i find players tend to play more tighter than usual and only play and bet with good solid hands.
Also we need to consider the types of players that play outlaws.. generally very good and tricky customers.

So onto your hand. based on the fact it was outlaws your initial bet was ok for me, not too big not to small, just right to get some action. The problem here though the action came from Telboy. Im sure Telboy wont mind me saying this but from experience and having a reasonable read on his style of play, when playing Telboy, especially in outlaws, if he playes into a raise he usually has very good cards.
So taking that into consideration, the flop being as it was i feel your bet of 75 was another good bet after telboys check. i would have put him a straight draw at this point or hit a pair with the queen. But i would have been very wary of that check and probably of followed suit and checked also.
Now we have the turn card which put you in a good position holding K flush. The chances of Tel holding 4/5 or 10/9 of diamonds are very slim, but an Ace of diamonds most possibly due to Tels follow up call after the flop. Standard flat call if the bet was low enough to do so.
for the river card i see it as a loose end card not making much difference to the hands in play.
As for the call to make at this point was a very difficult one indead. What call to make here would depend on stack size i guess, and being slightly better than Telboy at this point the 150 bet was bit cheap in my opinion. Either all-in or check. Not knowing that you was already beat at the fold your play so far for me was pretty good. But tels was better and he pushed at the river. If it was me knowing i still had a fair few chips to play with considering the game played, personally i would have given tel the benefit of the doubt and folded.
If it would have been any other player than Telboy, one i would consider a rather loose player then yes to call the all-in was the correct play.

Overall i feel you played the hand well, duke. Steady and drawing chips, but Telboy played a very good trap on you. It happens and when holding KK and hitting k flush it was a hand that was very hard to get away from.
fut.

yeah I wasn't making this thread just for you. I just did it in honor of you, whether or not you wanted to jump in. I don't know what you mean about the river bet because it was all in by the turn. But I agree with you. Knowing it was Telboy I should have folded, and honestly not folding was me being stubborn.

Originally Posted by CaptainSandy

Blimey, I've just seen this post by Duke.

Talk about an over reaction to a good natured comment.

I didn't say you were complaining.
5'10" is not that short.
My original statement is correct, I suspect you realise that which is why you protest just a little too much.

you're original statement can stand, but mine can too. If you go back and read it, I wasn't mad at all. Just stating my opinion. I respectfully disagreed. That's all. I don't expect to win every hand, and I also don't think anything's wrong with analyzing and looking for improvements to my game. I realize your comment was good natured (I even acknowledged that it was). So I was never mad and never thought you were being rude either. Sorry it's hard to read tone over forum. But consider my hand in that picture with you shaking what I assume is your hand.

Originally Posted by OP66fozzy

Duke, you know the odds, it is pretty remote Tel was holding the Ad, even more remote he had cards to give him a straight flush.

You had to play the way you did, I'd guess 80-90% of the time you would take the pot down, just unlucky to run in to the Ad. Even if you respect a player, where are you going to draw the line ???? As you have posted before, by calling, you now have additional information.

Credit to Tel also, he played it well on the flop to disguise his hand ( always easy to do when you hit the nut flush, though some people make it look difficult !!! )

You and Sandy need to shake hands over cyberspace and get on with the poker, both of you keep posting as you see fit....

Yeah Tel played it very well. His first call looked like an A of diamonds and maybe a paired Q too, so I thought I had him pegged as decent strength or drawing. A lot of tighter players will play passive against an aggressive player like me until they hit, then they bet out thinking aggressive and loose are equivalent and that I'll just pay off their hands. (Don't think I'll start folding to every float though just because I say that) So the fact he checked again meant weakness to me, and the fact that it wasn't weakness does indeed mean good move. I still stand by the fact that he would not check raise me on the turn with anything worse than what I had. No matter how pot committed or how much of a cooler/suckout, calling is still negative EV and I should have folded.

But yeah I agree with everyone that "optimal play" aside it's one of those situations where most people are gonna stack off and obviously only one can get lucky (like AA vs KK preflop).

Again nice hand, Tel and thanks for the responses, all.

[CaptainSandy]

you're original statement can stand, but mine can too. If you go back and read it, I wasn't mad at all.

Just to re-itterate I never said you were mad, dunno why you think that & I never said you were complaining, dunno why you think that. I said
"You do have a tendency to over analyse things sometimes."
I am not necessarily talking excusively about poker hands, the thread I had just read was....
Everleaf
Hope this is classed as banter, lol.
PS....and don't over-analyse my posts

[DukeOfDeath]

Originally Posted by CaptainSandy

you're original statement can stand, but mine can too. If you go back and read it, I wasn't mad at all.

Just to re-itterate I never said you were mad, dunno why you think that & I never said you were complaining, dunno why you think that. I said
"You do have a tendency to over analyse things sometimes."
I am not necessarily talking excusively about poker hands, the thread I had just read was....
Everleaf
Hope this is classed as banter, lol.
PS....and don't over-analyse my posts

Yeah I have a problem with overanalyzing things. I tried to see a professional about it, but I couldn't settle on which one. Too many pros and cons for each.

[telboy]

i think you played it the same as i would have duke,just unlucky.
heres how not to play KK.
Everleaf Gaming Game #309455269
***** Hand history for game #309455269 *****
Blinds 75/150 NL Hold'em - 2011/09/20 - 18:50:03
Table 1
Seat 2
Total number of players: 6
Seat 1: babypenguin ( 8019 Chips )
Seat 2: asroaslo ( 3220 Chips )
Seat 3: lanechase ( 4479 Chips )
Seat 4: Statist ( 2196 Chips )
Seat 6: telboy ( 1865 Chips )
Seat 8: kadettfan123 ( 4859 Chips )
lanechase: posts 75 Chips]
Statist: posts 150 Chips]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to telboy ]
telboy 150 Chips]
kadettfan123 150 Chips]
babypenguin folds
asroaslo folds
lanechase 75 Chips]
Statist checks
** Dealing Flop ** ]
lanechase: 300 Chips]
Statist folds
telboy 1,500 Chips]
kadettfan123 folds
lanechase 4,029 Chips]
telboy 215 Chips]
** Dealing Turn ** ]
** Dealing River ** ]
lanechase shows ] a straight, eight high
telboy shows ] a pair of kings
lanechase wins 4030 chips from main pot with a straight, eight high ]

[BBOB]

Originally Posted by telboy

i think you played it the same as i would have duke,just unlucky.
heres how not to play KK.
Everleaf Gaming Game #309455269
***** Hand history for game #309455269 *****
Blinds 75/150 NL Hold'em - 2011/09/20 - 18:50:03
Table 1
Seat 2
Total number of players: 6
Seat 1: babypenguin ( 8019 Chips )
Seat 2: asroaslo ( 3220 Chips )
Seat 3: lanechase ( 4479 Chips )
Seat 4: Statist ( 2196 Chips )
Seat 6: telboy ( 1865 Chips )
Seat 8: kadettfan123 ( 4859 Chips )
lanechase: posts 75 Chips]
Statist: posts 150 Chips]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to telboy ]
telboy 150 Chips]
kadettfan123 150 Chips]
babypenguin folds
asroaslo folds
lanechase 75 Chips]
Statist checks
** Dealing Flop ** ]
lanechase: 300 Chips]
Statist folds
telboy 1,500 Chips]
kadettfan123 folds
lanechase 4,029 Chips]
telboy 215 Chips]
** Dealing Turn ** ]
** Dealing River ** ]
lanechase shows ] a straight, eight high
telboy shows ] a pair of kings
lanechase wins 4030 chips from main pot with a straight, eight high ]

Aside from not raising preflop I thought u played it well. U got the money in as a huge favorite

[OP66fozzy]

Telboy

I agree with BBOB about the not raising preflop, but I can see why you flat called to get some action.

However, with the relative chipstacks, you can't blame the other guy for what he did after the flop, top pair/dodgy kicker, not that many hands he would put you on that had him beat ( 88,99, 1010, maybe JJ ) but which you wouldn't have raised with.

Clearly he got lucky, but I don't see what he did as any sort of donk play, calling 75 into a pot of 525 when sat with 4k+, you can do with any two cards and have a very well disguised hand or an easy fold next time round.

[DukeOfDeath]

I agree with the other two about raising preflop. However if this were the same set up but you were 3 handed or first to act on the button it's great deception. But as it stands, way too many saw the flop and you are stacking off with KK this deep.

BBOB's right though, you way outplayed him and got it in as a favorite.

[Pocket_Ducks]

Duke, i agree with those that say you was just unlucky, both you and telboy played it decent.

And telboy, yeah a raise preflop might have only got you peanuts but it's better than losing it all eh

I read somewhere standard raise preflop with KK is 4 x bb
But it depends on so many things, if the table is aggressive raise more, and hope for an over the top against 8's or something

kwak

[teebs]

Originally Posted by Pocket_Ducks

I read somewhere standard raise preflop with KK is 4 x bb

Well funny enough, nowadays in most tournies, the standard raise is 2x or 2.5x the BB.
Furthermore this is essential nowadays in Heads up play, whereby raising 2x the BB will give the same effect, whilst risking less of your chips.

[Pocket_Ducks]

Originally Posted by teebs

Well funny enough, nowadays in most tournies, the standard raise is 2x or 2.5x the BB.
Furthermore this is essential nowadays in Heads up play, whereby raising 2x the BB will give the same effect, whilst risking less of your chips.

Is that standard raise for KK? I'm sorry I never studied in the same poker library as you but I'd rather not let ppl in cheap when I have big pockets, value play and all that..

But then I've often seen you play backwards so whatever floats ur boat fella

kwak