My Turn

[teebs]

Well this is mainly for the live games....I mean online poker is a totally different game in my honest opinion.
You see far less 3 bets or 4 bets pre flop, meaning way more people are gonna be seeing flops (which is why the 2x or 2.5x raise is no good online).

[SLYX]

Duke i call that all day long....just bad luck, i don't know what the odds are but its a auto call in my opionion.

[telboy]

good points thanks all,my veiw is i messed up big time here,this was a deepstack tourney,and nearly every hand was raised x5 bb and no action.
thats why i flat called looking for some action.not donk play by the winner,just trying to say KK is a hard starting hand and depends on the table and how its playing.

[DukeOfDeath]

Originally Posted by telboy

good points thanks all,my veiw is i messed up big time here,this was a deepstack tourney,and nearly every hand was raised x5 bb and no action.
thats why i flat called looking for some action.not donk play by the winner,just trying to say KK is a hard starting hand and depends on the table and how its playing.

yeah and that's a good motivation to flat instead of 5X, but what about a standard 3X or something like that in between?

And teebs I raise 3X if I raise at all early stages of tourney (online), but I do 2.5X plus 1 per limper when blinds start getting steep enough where most stacks are less than 25-30 BB. The strategy behind raising this little is the same as you say: it acheives the same effect by risking less. However if blinds AREN'T high it just gives people way too good of odds to call.

One thing's for sure: pocketducks, I would never raise KK any more or less than any other hand. You never want to be transparent. If you raise it more to "protect" your hand you just force yourself to gain a small pot and don't get true value from it. Furthermore if someone DOES call they kinda know what you have and can extract a lot more value from you, knowing you can't lay it down (kinda like the first hand in this thread). If you raise less to "invite action" you will get action and not know where you're at. Plus just in general if you always play AA and KK a certain way completely different from the rest of your hands it just becomes way too transparent.

[tony48]

i dont now much about odds but i have been looking
at the bad beats and good starting hands beaten
by donk players 90% of hand are won with the person
with the bigger stack has anyone else seen this.

[jazzsinger1]

from past experience if ive not raised on AA or KK,ive lost over 90% of the hands.in most cases i will raise or depending on the players who is on the table with me,some players will call all hands and some all raises,chip stack or no.AA and KK are raise hands..trying to lure players into the game by not raising has not helped in the past,this is ofcourse is my experience.Then again if last 3/2 in tourney i would probably not raise..again its circumstantial..but as a general thumb rule,i will raise those pockets..