The 77 Toss Up

[DukeOfDeath]

First hand of the day AK vs. 77 last hand AQ vs. 77. Was on both sides of that coin and all in and lost both times. Once for a full $10 buy in at a table and once to bubble an OP66 daily. Gonna give both and ask for advice.

First:
Everleaf Gaming Game #292547382
***** Hand history for game #292547382 *****
Blinds $0.05/$0.10 NL Hold'em - 2011/08/02 - 00:04:23
Table Detroit 20
Seat 1
Total number of players: 4
Seat 1: DukeOfDeath ( $ 10.05 USD )
Seat 3: LooseMcGoose ( $ 10 USD )
Seat 4: mikeyismoney ( new player )
Seat 6: drkamal ( $ 19.05 USD )
DukeOfDeath: posts $ 0.05 USD]
LooseMcGoose: posts $ 0.10 USD]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to DukeOfDeath ]
DukeOfDeath $ 0.25 USD]
mikeyismoney has joined the table
LooseMcGoose $ 1.40 USD]
DukeOfDeath raise [$ 9.75 USD]
LooseMcGoose $ 8.50 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** ]
** Dealing Turn ** ]
** Dealing River ** ]
DukeOfDeath shows ] a pair of jacks
LooseMcGoose shows ] two pairs, jacks and sevens
LooseMcGoose wins $ 19 USD from main pot with two pairs, jacks and sevens ]

First of all the name should have been a clue but generally people that say they're a donkey are better than those claiming to be sharks. The only thing I can think of doing differently is 4 betting to $4 instead of all in so I could still easily be representing AA or KK, but he's either calling or shoving. How do I play then. Then there's flat call his 3 bet, but I'm out of position and have no info on this guy. Either way I could have slowed down and just waited for information. But now I have info if I ever play him again. 3 betting 77 is a decent line. Calling a 4 bet shove to a new guy at the table who made a full buy in and 3X BB raise UTG is not a decent line. He's ahead of nothing. Tied with less than half of hands and behind over half. Why would you call less than 2:1 as a 3:1 dog? Anyway I think in general just a toss up the wrong way.

Then came my final hand in OP66NY. Everyone had been playing solid and this is the first hand after the second break:

Everleaf Gaming Game #292576986
***** Hand history for game #292576986 *****
Blinds 400/800 NL Hold'em - 2011/08/02 - 03:11:51
Table 1
Seat 3 is the butto
Total number of players: 6
Seat 2: phattP ( 9850 Chips )
Seat 3: NaCL_H2O ( 21422 Chips )
Seat 5: woftam ( 8997 Chips )
Seat 6: 10191 ( 1264 Chips )
Seat 8: scgirl ( 13094 Chips )
Seat 9: DukeOfDeath ( 6873 Chips )
phattP: posts ante [ 100 Chips]
NaCL_H2O: posts ante [ 100 Chips]
woftam: posts ante [ 100 Chips]
10191: posts ante [ 100 Chips]
scgirl: posts ante [ 100 Chips]
DukeOfDeath: posts ante [ 100 Chips]
woftam: posts 400 Chips]
10191: posts 800 Chips]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to DukeOfDeath ]
scgirl folds
DukeOfDeath raise [ 6,773 Chips]
phattP raise [ 9,750 Chips]
NaCL_H2O folds
woftam folds
10191 folds
** Dealing Flop ** ]
** Dealing Turn ** ]
** Dealing River ** ]
phattP shows ] two pairs, aces and eights
DukeOfDeath shows ] two pairs, eights and sevens
phattP wins 15346 chips from main pot with two pairs, aces and eights ]

Short stack was in BB and I was next short stack and UTG + 1 w/ less than 9 BB. So 77 I still think is a shove. I'm technically a slight favorite over Panda but obviously just looking to steal blinds or isolate 10191. AQ definitely justifiable call, but much better to be the raiser not the caller with (esp. w/ less than 4 BB behind). But it was a nice play to possibly send two players home, and it sent me home. Just got unlucky on both sides of the coin. To quote Tupac: Guess that's the way it goes though. Congrats on that hand Phatt and congrats on the tourney WOFTAM. WP all.

Any advice or just a c'est la vie?

[CaptainSandy]

I think you were just unlucky both times.
In the first hand his re-raise could indicate a mid pair and your all-in should really have seen him fold, but he took a punt.
In the second it's often said that once you're less than 10x BB then you should all in with pairs and Aces/10&above, so only other option was to fold but in your position I think you did the right thing.
Hindsight's wonderful though.

[OP66fozzy]

The free chip tourney, fair enough.

But the ring game....hmmm, I'm not so sure. If I read your post right, that was the 1st hand at the table ( though with a stack of $10.05, I'm not sure I have read it right ). Assuming it was the first hand, and you are managing your bankroll appropriately ( every post I have seen from you would indicate that to be the case ), then you can afford the risk and subsequent loss.

But for me, I don't want to be putting my entire stack on the line 1st hand with anything other than KK or AA preflop. No issue with the raise, but I'd only have been calling his 3 bet and taking a look at the flop.

OK, you have info on him, but 3 players have now got info on you. Not a bad play, but that early in the game, not one I would have been making.

[DukeOfDeath]

Originally Posted by OP66fozzy

OK, you have info on him, but 3 players have now got info on you. Not a bad play, but that early in the game, not one I would have been making.

Yeah you read correctly. $10.05 and within bankroll and 1st hand. More than 3 players have info now that I posted this But yes that did cross my mind, and I think giving info is ok if you are aware of the info you're giving. The way 5c/10c tables go can be a grind. There's a lot of raising to steal blinds with an occasional 3 bet. Less than half the hands see a flop and rarely is there a showdown (and it's usually because 2 players have pretty good hands). So in a way I didn't mind giving information as a way of image control. I don't want the first information they see to be that I slow down if you play back at me. Then I will be 3 bet all day long. And it depends on your preferrence. Do you want people to think you're tight so you can get away with more bluffs? Or do you want people to think you're loose so they pay you off more? I think both work as long as you know the image you have. But yeah I feel confident that I would have been paid back if that guy stuck around. Plus that toss up goes the other way half the time (and has for me on very similar tables AK vs. QQ on both sides). But as you point out being tight also doesn't hurt. Thanks for the feedback.