Again! What i did wrong! Dam rings!

[jOYa]

Playin tight on rings, waiting good hands, and damm chaser
always win, why?


***** Hand history for game #103030162 *****
Blinds $0.05/$0.10 NL Hold'em - 2009/09/03 - 08:39:46
Table Avon
Seat 7
Total number of players: 10
Seat 1: jOYa ( $ 10.36 USD )
Seat 2: proto ( $ 38.35 USD )
Seat 3: vip222 ( $ 10.39 USD )
Seat 4: polyview ( $ 9.55 USD )
Seat 5: scud66 ( $ 3.87 USD )
Seat 6: Kazulet ( $ 2.76 USD )
Seat 7: langwang ( $ 9.30 USD )
Seat 8: anyday ( $ 10.82 USD )
Seat 9: nadds ( $ 11.06 USD )
Seat 10: zdagobertz ( $ 10 USD )
anyday: posts $ 0.05 USD]
nadds: posts $ 0.10 USD]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to jOYa ]
zdagobertz folds
jOYa $ 0.35 USD]
proto $ 0.35 USD]
vip222 folds
polyview folds
scud66 folds
Kazulet $ 0.35 USD]
langwang folds
anyday folds
nadds folds
** Dealing Flop ** ]
jOYa checks
proto: $ 0.80 USD]
Kazulet folds
jOYa $ 3.60 USD]
proto $ 2.80 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** ]
jOYa: $ 6.41 USD]
proto $ 6.41 USD]
** Dealing River ** ]
proto wins $ 19.54 USD from main pot with a straight, jack high ]

[roo27]

just unlucky there i think joya i dont see that ether of you played that roung as it was the right push buy you but with a st8 and a flush drew from flop he was never going to fold i know id of made the same bet as you did (with kk) but also of made the same call as he did (with st8 and flush drew and the over card ace)

[jOYa]

i knew all that m8, i would do same as he but WHY????????????????????

[BlackLava]

I can't say I'm right or wrong and I would have been trapped same way but if you want my point : a 3,5 bet in early position on such a low limit fishy table is not enough in my opinion
Better winning nothing with KK than beeing trapped in a no fold story on low limit tables...

Stack to pot is important here : Proto got a lot and your good raise on flop is a good raise based on pot only, he's obviously a fish (if he was knowing odds the right move for him was going all-in on flop and not calling ...) and a well stacked fish is a hell for your bankroll management even if profitable

If you always overbet preflop with KK in early position on such table, let's say 8-10 BB you will never face such setup.
Let's say he is a donk and calling anyway with A9 (but then we have only one caller, just a simulation), his pot bet on flop is yet about $2 then your 4 raise $8 more (= all-in). He will call because he has the odds but then you would be "only unlucky", your stack to pot ratio on flop is the good one for such story and for your starting hand

[stjimmy]

yeah, i have to agree with roo, i would have chassed there. unlucky mate.
i do find the standard of play better on the 25/50 table though...

[T_B_H]

it probably would have made no difference in this case, but i have now started to raise higher on the 5/10 tables as the "pot size" raise is getting to many callers (especially if i have KK or AA)

bet he'd have still called tho with A9 suited, have played him a few times myself

[BlackLava]

hmm if I read you right Roo & Jimmy you would have both call the $3.60 and not going all in on flop with straight flush draw plus overcard?
I see no implied odds here so I really think the right move for Proto was going all-in when seeing such raise, even if facing 3 of a kind it would still be about 50/50 (or perhaps 40/60 not sure but wouldn't justify not going all-in).

[stjimmy]

Originally Posted by BlackLava

hmm if I read you right Roo & Jimmy you would have both call the $3.60 and not going all in on flop with straight flush draw plus overcard?
I see no implied odds here so I really think the right move for Proto was going all-in when seeing such raise, even if facing 3 of a kind it would still be about 50/50 (or perhaps 40/60 not sure but wouldn't justify not going all-in).

one day i`d just call, another day i might go all in, i dont play hands in a set way, if proto had gone all in, im sure joya would still have called...

[T_B_H]

ok pre flop

Player 1 (Ks Kh): win 68.07% lose 31.49% tie 0.44% EV 0.683
Player 2 (As 9s): win 31.49% lose 68.07% tie 0.44% EV 0.317

after flop

Player 1 (Ks Kh): win 38.94% lose 59.30% tie 1.76% EV 0.398
Player 2 (As 9s): win 59.30% lose 38.94% tie 1.76% EV 0.602

after turn

Player 1 (Ks Kh): win 61.46% lose 38.54% tie 0.00% EV 0.615
Player 2 (As 9s): win 38.54% lose 61.46% tie 0.00% EV 0.385

[roo27]

no i dont think i would of bet all in if i was proto lava i liked his 80 bet would of been nice to see some cheap cards if pos but would of always been willing to call joyas all in

[BlackLava]

Originally Posted by stjimmy

one day i`d just call, another day i might go all in, i dont play hands in a set way, if proto had gone all in, im sure joya would still have called...

yes he would have still called but as I said in my first answer even if it wouldn't change anything to the final result, he's facing a bad stack to pot ratio on flop to play his simple pair and that's due to the preflop action...

Immagine proto wouldn't have made his pot sized bet on flop, the story would have been even worse : We have a fish with about $40, another player, only a pair in hand, $1 in pot and an awfull flop with tons of drawings. And Joya's stack would have got $10 remanings: Exactly the wrong amount to play there... You can't go all-in (stupid to risk $9 for $1), you can't bet anything fair to win the hand now on flop, you have trapped yourself!

Originally Posted by roo27

no i dont think i would of bet all in if i was proto lava i liked his 80 bet would of been nice to see some cheap cards if pos but would of always been willing to call joyas all in

Just to be sure we are talking about the same story : The 80 cents bet is a good move from Proto, I'm talking about his call after the $3.60 raise, there -as TBH's odds in last post state- the right move in my opinion is only going all-in because if missing he won't have any odds to call for the next card and obviously Joya won't check the turn.

[jOYa]

just wanna say that i was in 5,6 hands of 50 played (double up with AK once) and proto was in at least 40 hands of 50, and he hit everything,
problem (not for them, for me, lol) is because rich player have much much money in bankroll and they play low ring tables and call drawing flops,
because 5$ is for them like 500$ to me.
Happend on rings, rebuy tourneys, rich get richer, and poor bankroll face lucky calls.

Btw, thanks for posts guys!

[BlackLava]

Originally Posted by jOYa

just wanna say that i was in 5,6 hands of 50 played (double up with AK once) and proto was in at least 40 hands of 50, and he hit everything,
problem (not for them, for me, lol) is because rich player have much much money in bankroll and they play low ring tables and call drawing flops,
because 5$ is for them like 500$ to me.
Happend on rings, rebuy tourneys, rich get richer, and poor bankroll face lucky calls.

then it's an easy math : The more fish you see on a limit, the bigger your bankroll must be behind

[elpoulpo]

Thank for the explanations : I'd probably not have made an all'in on proto's place too, but now I see it was the move to make.

Anyway as said by TBH above, even with a bigger preflop raise , he probably have called.

Interesting thread: I'm voting for it

[TIDDLYW1NK]

TOUGH ONE JOYA, I FEEL YOUR PAIN BROTHER, IT'S THE PERILS OF A SMALL BANKROLL. AFTER THE FLOP HE WAS A BIG FOVOURITE OVER YOUR KINGS AND BY THE TIME YOU SHOVED ON HIM HE WAS GETTING DECENT POT ODDS. MORE IMPORTANTLY HE CAN AFFORD TO TAKE THE HIT IF IT BACKFIRES. I THINK LAVA IS RIGHT, 3.5 TIMES THE BB WON'T SHIFT A CHIPPED UP CALLING STATION WITH ACE NINE SUITED AND THAT'S A VERY DANGEROUS HAND FOR THE KINGS. IT'S BEEN HAPPENIN' TO ME A LOT RECENTLY, AS YOU SAY PEOPLE WITH A DECENT BANKROLL SIT AT LOW LEVEL TABLES AND CHASE US PAUPERS OUTTA THE GAME. WE JUST GOTTA OUTSMART 'EM AND BECOME ONE OF 'EM. I'M NEW TO THE CASH SIDE ON THIS SITE AND THE PLAY CAN BE A BIT LEFTFIELD AT TIMES BUT A GOOD PLAYER WILL BEAT A LUCKY PLAYER OVER TIME. KEEP THE FAITH JOYA MATE, YOU GOT THE GAME TO GET IT BACK. TAKE IT ON THE CHIN AND COME BACK STRONGER, WHAT DON'T KILL US MAKES US STRONGER RIGHT?

GOOD LUCK OUT THERE BUDDY, KEEP ON FISHIN'.......YOUR FRIEND TIDDLES

[M_80]

I like to look at things a little differently. Very seldom means I'm right though.

When there are 10 people at the table and I am dealt a high pocket pair, even AA, I see a hand with 1 pair. The board has to pair for me to see 2 pair and I have only 2 outs to get trips.

Danger sign #1:
Position is important because the higher the cards you hold the more likely they are not in play yet because someone would had called the blind. Your position is not great.

Danger sign #2
Big stack has yet to play. He only has to risk 1/4 of his stack to put me all in. Very good position for him to bluff me. Especially if is roo - lol.

After the flop there is a lot of potential that you cannot take advantage of.

I would have called the .80 on the flop. May not win as much but may have gotten out of the hand a little cheaper.

In this situation I am always looking for a smaller pocket pair that has tripled up. Also see the str8 and flush potential.

The one thing we don't know is how the betting has been going in the game up until that point.

Then again- I might just shoot the works, right out of the gate.

[BlackLava]

Originally Posted by M_80

Big stack has yet to play. He only has to risk 1/4 of his stack to put me all in. Very good position for him to bluff me.

After the flop there is a lot of potential that you cannot take advantage of.

Yup and like Joya added, he has entered load of hands before and looks like very loose so far


I have a question to add to the thread, immagine the same preflop action and same flop but then instead of his pot sized bet, proto is directly all-in : Would you have called?

[T_B_H]

flush draw, possibility he hit straight or had straight draw, i'd prob reluctantly fold, unless i thought he'd just hit top pair(by previous play)

sometimes tho with over pair its hard, so it comes back to stacks again, for 5$ prob call, if both had big stacks (20/25$) then fold and wait for next time

[roo27]

Originally Posted by BlackLava

Yup and like Joya added, he has entered load of hands before and looks like very loose so far


I have a question to add to the thread, immagine the same preflop action and same flop but then instead of his pot sized bet, proto is directly all-in : Would you have called?

with his lose table image and a lower flop to my pocket pair i think id have to asume he hit top pair with like a 10 so i think yes i would of called here but aganst a player that had a tighter table image i'd have to consider folding but saying that i think id call anyway its a mistake iv made time and time againg calling with a over pair and often finding iv just called someone making a lose call that hit 2 pair so this would be another reson why a higher pre flop rase would of been better

[T_B_H]

yep, the cards say fold, but the player says call in this instance.

sometimes your playing the cards, and sometimes the player