general poker Question

[street66]

say for example your short stacked in a tourney final table 5 left

bob has 10567
you have 3560
jimmy has 34660
dave has 24000
gary has 8000

blinds 400/800 what hands would u push with?
opinions only there is no right answers

[roo27]

thats not realy that short stacked as ther are 2 other players on low stacks so still time to play for 3ed here so wouldent be pushing with less than a poket pair or A,10 or better.
but if you was the only low stack on table id push with any pair (even 2,2) any A or high coneters eg (9,10 / 10,J / J,Q / Q,K) would even consider (10,K) and simala

[DeanReeves66]

id be pushing with any ace, any 2 face cards and any pair.
and as 9 10 is my fav hand id push with that 2 lol

[jockney]

You could probably afford to let one set of blinds go by before you push with anything but a premium hand. But I would pretty much agree with what Roo said

[DeanReeves66]

Originally Posted by roo27

thats not realy that short stacked as ther are 2 other players on low stacks so still time to play for 3ed here so wouldent be pushing with less than a poket pair or A,10 or better.
but if you was the only low stack on table id push with any pair (even 2,2) any A or high coneters eg (9,10 / 10,J / J,Q / Q,K) would even consider (10,K) and simala

i see what ur sayin m8 but i play to win not to get 3rd so i would be trying to get my chips in as fast as possible lol so i can double up and have a good chance of winning.

[roo27]

Originally Posted by DeanReeves66

i see what ur sayin m8 but i play to win not to get 3rd so i would be trying to get my chips in as fast as possible lol so i can double up and have a good chance of winning.

your a greedy greedy man lol nothing roung with playing for 3ed im not a greedy man and a payed place is a payed place so i'll take that if someone could come 3ed in evry poker torny thay played thayed be 1 of the most sucsesfull poker players of all time

[DeanReeves66]

Originally Posted by roo27

your a greedy greedy man lol nothing roung with playing for 3ed im not a greedy man and a payed place is a payed place so i'll take that if someone could come 3ed in evry poker torny thay played thayed be 1 of the most sucsesfull poker players of all time

lol yes i am but if they come 1st in every tournament they would be even more sucessfull so better to play for the win lol

[BAZULTRA]

Look at the facts here

The blinds are 400/800
Chips in play are 80000
80000 chips in play would mean 16000 chips for an average stack
You have 3560 so you have even less that 10BB which puts you in serious danger of elimination

I wouldn't be waiting for anything If I was down to less than 10bb at those blind levels. At this stage I would be first to shove with 23 os knowing I would at least be live against someone calling me with AK and hopefully double up. You don't even have enough chips to make a raise and have good fold equity so you only have 1 option and that's allin.

Bazzy

[M_80]

Got to go with Roo on this one. You have no raising power and even an all-in is not much of a threat to the table. You've got 10 rounds to get a good hand and hope that others will eliminate each other. Go for third and hope for a win.

[DeanReeves66]

CLOSE THE THREAD! LOL

just listen to baz he knows what his on about lol

[BBOB]

In this case I say push with the first hand that catches your attention although I wouldnt push with just anything id wait till I get something I half way like good drawing hand etc. But bazultra is rite as well most pros wouldnt wait for anything just go in with any two cards. I understand the logic but I dont like doing this myself unless I absolutely have to. Id rather fold 2 3 and hope someone is knocked out ofcourse in the situation you describe you may be forced to push with any two cards. Just dont wait to long or you get little value if you do double up and will soon face same decision. Those who know me know I still try to get in with quality hand in this spot but sometimes you dont have that choice

[street66]

it looks like everyone prefers a different way to play. some i like more than others

all im doing is finding out how i should really play poker as ive been on the site a year and a half and im still a gimp a the game so i want to learn how i should really play

[DeanReeves66]

Originally Posted by street66

it looks like everyone prefers a different way to play. some i like more than others

all im doing is finding out how i should really play poker as ive been on the site a year and a half and im still a gimp a the game so i want to learn how i should really play

street every1 plays there own game there is no such thing as a way to play, every1s different..
bazultra kindly does poker lessons on here sumtimes and im sure he would find the time to give u a lesson if u want 2 learn more..
u can learn alot from him as i have done and probabley many others.
deano

[street66]

Originally Posted by DeanReeves66

street every1 plays there own game there is no such thing as a way to play, every1s different..
bazultra kindly does poker lessons on here sumtimes and im sure he would find the time to give u a lesson if u want 2 learn more..
u can learn alot from him as i have done and probabley many others.
deano

welll maybe if he see's this he might offfer me one.
i also learn alot from you mate suprise suprise your a decent player

[FrankWhiteNY]

i don't know much, but i don't think theres any one right way to play..i kinda think you gotta adjust your plan based on the elements

[SternSwiss]

What Bazzy wrote. 100%

[DarthYoda]

ok interesting question
no right answers
my answer is the clint eastwood solution
DO YOU FEEL LUCKY PUNK???
any hand can be a winning hand
best i can give you is go with your gut
10 4 can beat AA if the flop falls your way

[SternSwiss]

There are right answers...
...and a bunch of simply false ones.

Since some of the latter have been voiced here, I'll take the time to unfold in detail (Baz gave -with a numeral typo- a short but excellent sum-up). I'll try to explain in detail the works behind and try to give a systemic explanation of what is ast stake.

A full answer to the opening question would request player positions for this very simple reason (and to be extra precise: the amount for antes, but it harldy matters there coz the case is crystal clear):

- With a "Red Zone M" (i'll briefly explain below if you are not familiar with this important concept) your only option is to go all-in and to choose when (though you have little time margin) before being eaten-up. Any other bet would consume so much of your stack (on a proper table) that you would be pot-commited anyway and going all in gives you a chance to reload a bit with taking the pot wiht your first bet.

Corollary questions about whether to push all-in or not:

1) Has anyone already entered the pot before you. If yes, you need to be careful and only go all-in with the sort of hands you would raisee up with early in the tournament

2) How good is my preflop hand? According to the tightest player that makes theory and one of the top players in history ( Dan Harrington, read the Vol. II of his famous series on tournament play for such cases) the answer to this is much less important than the answer to question 1. In his words "I am only folding the very worst hands here. 10-6 off-suit is plenty good enough.

I choose to refer to him for his is the most "stern" theorician, but Gus Hansen doens't say anything different on that point, so clear it is, as well as no-one else I have ever read.


So what is M?

It is simply the ratio of your stack to the current blinds (sb & bb) + the antes

Illustration with the example that concerns us:

Stack = 3560
SB = 400
BB = 800
Antes (no precision, let's say 100 -could vary, not sure of the scale here), so 5 players x 100 = 500

M = [3450 / (400 + 800 + 500)] = 3450 / 1700 = 2 (roughly, decimals can be discarded)



There are 5 common recognized zones:
Green (M of 20 or more), Yellow (10-20), Orange (6-10), red (1-5), Dead zone (less than the opening pot) which imply VERY different strategies during endgames.

In the red zone you have lost the abiltiy to make anything else but all-in bets. If your M is below 3, you all-in bet will usaully fail to drive anyone way since your weakness, the prospect of booting you out for others and intersting odds will result in at leat one call).


THERE IS NO DOUBT ON THIS QUESTION. READ OR ASK ANYWHERE (QUALIFIED) IF YOU DON'T TRUST ME.


A corollary intersting point for bigger stacks. As long as you are not in the red zone, you should follow other player's M.

Because, for example Slowplaying good hands (more often than not risky if not lousy play) agains low M's (that will have to make moves which will be looser than earlier in the tournament) can be actually a fruitful strategy.


Now this is the tight play theory and if you have a bit of margin you can do whatever you want as usual in poker, with hopefully caluclated risk and a coherent strategy. but, with a M of 2, there is really not much options.


Best regards,
Stern

[SternSwiss]

There are also other models than "M", but they point to absolutely the same conclusions in such a case and M is the most widespread model to my knowledge, so the one I choose for the above post.

[TIDDLYW1NK]

Originally Posted by BAZULTRA

Look at the facts here

The blinds are 400/800
Chips in play are 80000
80000 chips in play would mean 16000 chips for an average stack
You have 3560 so you have even less that 10BB which puts you in serious danger of elimination

I wouldn't be waiting for anything If I was down to less than 10bb at those blind levels. At this stage I would be first to shove with 23 os knowing I would at least be live against someone calling me with AK and hopefully double up. You don't even have enough chips to make a raise and have good fold equity so you only have 1 option and that's allin.

Bazzy

SPOT ON, GET 'EM IN THERE 5-2 OFF WILL PROBABLY HAVE YOU IN BETTER SHAPE THAN A RAG ACE AS YOURE MORE LIKELY TO GET CALLED BY AN ACE AND THEN YOU'RE DOMINATED. TWO LIVE CARDS AND YOU'RE IN WITH A FAIR CHANCE. BAZ HAS THIS RIGHT BUT YOU ALL KNEW THAT