How to play AA preflop?

[TheTexan]

We have had this conversation before, according to the rules, you are not to discuss your cards prior to the play ending, however it was also pointed out that in live tourneys it sometimes a ploy to chat up the cards too. I would agree though with Sandy that if this were a real money table it would be frowned upon. Just my .02 worth as a player only.

On the original topic, just had this happen thrice in Ultra, first time player had pocket As and went all in against my A 10, I was short stacked to so I called and hit the straight to the A on the table. Second time he went all in out of position against my pocket 3's, called pre flop and caught my set on the flop. Third time I got the pockets and the betting was slower JJ on table, opponent bit low so I called through against a possible J set, only to find in the end QQ vs AA and won. So there it is, It Depends...

[DukeOfDeath]

Originally Posted by CaptainSandy

Duke,
2 points.
Firstly I agree you win more with aces than you lose it's just you remember the losses more.
Secondly, if that game was on the cash side I'd consider removing your post or at least editing the chat.

Yeah good point. I was just telling him I had As b/c I was planning on folding to that bet. Not asking or expecting information back. Since I can't show a hand after I fold I was basically saying I'm annoyed that you called pre with Q9, bet flop with 7s, are semi bluffing so hard with diamonds, or got so lucky with AQ (which is hugely dominated by AA). I wasn't asking what he had, and was definitely folding anyway

[daddyspoon]

clearly not like this

Everleaf Gaming Game #281181186
***** Hand history for game #281181186 *****
Blinds 5/10 NL Hold'em - 2011/06/20 - 17:03:33
Table 2
Seat 4
Total number of players: 7
Seat 1: daddyspoon ( 1490 Chips )
Seat 2: BabyJ07 ( 1490 Chips )
Seat 3: Fridge09 ( 2570 Chips )
Seat 4: weedinho ( 1490 Chips )
Seat 5: SCPeach ( 1410 Chips )
Seat 6: cowboys1 ( 1440 Chips )
Seat 7: josephineb ( 610 Chips )
Seat 8: waterman1 ( new player )
SCPeach: posts 5 Chips]
cowboys1: posts 10 Chips]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to daddyspoon ]
josephineb folds
daddyspoon 140 Chips]
waterman1 has been reseated to this table
BabyJ07 folds
Fridge09 folds
weedinho folds
SCPeach 135 Chips]
cowboys1 folds
** Dealing Flop ** ]
SCPeach: 290 Chips]
daddyspoon 1,350 Chips]
SCPeach 980 Chips]
** Dealing Turn ** ]
** Dealing River ** ]
daddyspoon shows ] a pair of aces
SCPeach shows ] a flush, ten high
SCPeach wins 2830 chips from main pot with a flush, ten high ]

[DukeOfDeath]

Yeah, DS, I think it's one of those where you played it pretty well and you were just unlucky for it not to go your way . However I think it's a perfect example of how to adjust from the "ideal way to play" based on opponents and board texture. For instance SCPeach. She can call rather light. If she was considering implied odds (since you obviously proved you were willing to stack off) she was correct to call. But just based on pot odds, she really should only make that call from the blinds in somewhat deepstack formats. However if you know your opponent, you would know she often calls with any "good looking" hand including almost any A, pocket pair, suited cards, or face cards. But on the flop there are two warning signs. First the board is wet. 98, 54, random 8 or 9, and any two hearts can either be ahead or catch up a little too easily, and these are well within her range. Secondly, if she's betting the flop from the blinds knowing you opened from middle position she likely has something. If she was a loose aggressive player you wouldn't give her credit, but she is more loose passive. And by straight hand comparison she was actually nearly a 3:2 favorite on the flop. So yeah nothing wrong with your play preflop at all. You can't be faulted for your flop move either, but a different board or different opponent could be more ideal for that shove.

So I read through at least 2 more threads here from a year or two back that were 2 or 3 pages long on this same topic. It seems the universal theme is people saying "all in" or "fold" (I'm almost certain the latter is a joke or bitterness from hands like this one). A few are a little more wise saying something in between like 3X or 1/3 stack or slow then fast or things like that. I think if there's one and only one thing you should know about playing Aces it is don't play it any differently than your other hands. So the question really should be shifted towards how can I play more hands to disguise my As better when I have them? Honestly if there are a ton of people in the pot you can limp small pocket pairs or suited connectors b/c of the "price you're getting". Other than that though, you should be folding or raising almost every hand. Only exceptions are adjusting to newbies at a table that either call, fold, or shove too often. For the most part the value in As is not letting people know you have them. This helps you getting paid off (and not just collecting blinds), but it also protects you from bad beats. A real player that knows you have As can play pocket pairs and suited connectors, get away cheap on missed flops, and put you in a world of hurt when they hit b/c you've essentially exposed your cards. The only thing different with As from other hands you would open for a raise is how comfortably you can 3,4, or 5-bet with them.

I don't know if you watch poker on TV much, but often in cash games they instigate a 7 2 off prop bet. Where if anyone wins a pot with 72o and shows their bluff, everyone at the table has to pay the player a BB or 2. At first this seems to just be a gamblers wager since bluffing is fun. Why not get paid for what they love? But honestly it affects AA more than it affects 72. People begin playing 72 off like they would As knowing they can both win the pot and get another 10 or 20 blinds if it works with only risking a pot sized bet at most. But b/c your opponents know this, you can play your As more aggressively and get paid off by a KQs on a K 7 3 rainbow board b/c they think you have nothing more than a pair of 7s and extra value from fold equity.

The take away isn't to start bluffing with crap hands. It's knowing that any 2 cards can give you the nuts, but a raise:

• lets you know where you stand on a flop better
• builds the pot for your stronger hands
• and (if you're doing it the right frequency) let's you narrow the field with your As while still getting just enough action.

This advice won't stop bad beats, but you can't complain getting a hand that wins 85% of the time.

[CaptainSandy]

That'san excellent post, Duke, very good read.

[white_wizard]

Originally Posted by CaptainSandy

I guess we see things differently.

I consider it cheating.

but is it not just another form of bluffing,,if they where m8s then yes its cheating,,u choose if u belive him or not,

[CaptainSandy]

Originally Posted by white_wizard

but is it not just another form of bluffing,,if they where m8s then yes its cheating,,u choose if u belive him or not,

Looking at my words that you have quoted I do appear to be a little accussatorial (if that's a word), that was not my intention and I apologise to Duke; I have played him on the cash side and believe him when he says he was declaring his hand before folding.
However....if you take the words said in chat it could be perceived as collusion for two reasons:-
1) the river was still to come
2) non OP66 players cannot see this chat
If you turn it around how would you feel if you were playing against 2 players who told each other what they were holding before deciding whether to fold.
Again, I do not believe this was the case here.

[OP66fozzy]

Re the chat.

If there were other players left in the hand, then I would consider declaring what you were folding 'bad form'.

If Duke had got his fold in before the Q9 response, then I suspect this would be a none conversation.

Personally, I take the standpoint that unless I actually see a players hole cards, I take no notice of what they claim to have in chat, be that whilst a hand is in progress or after it has finished.

[Pocket_Ducks]

Good post Duke, very good.

One benefit of playing a 'mixed game' is just for this reason...
you can represent a hand when u have rags, and at the other end of the scale you can bet out your AA and more people could call you.

...But then we could get into a discussion on whether one would rather secure the pot and take the blinds, or risk the ordeal of having their AA quacked

kwak

[jayccin]

play AA all in always!!!!

if DS would have went all in pre flop peaches would have folded

[CherryPie]

generally bet fairly hard pre-flop and bet harder after the flop. if playin a major bluffer or sum1 thats overbetting everything i might risk slow/underplaying it for the chance of a massive pot.

[CherryPie]

or play it like 7 2 and go all in.

[SweeneyTodd6]

One way to play them here all in.

[tony48]

hard and fast o hang on thats something else

[DukeOfDeath]

First of all, Sandy, no apology necessary. I'm glad you brought it up because I never thought of it that way. But a discussion as to where the line is drawn on table talk would surely make an interesting new/separate thread. I respect your play too. I'll still never forget the Outlaws where YOU slow played As and hit a boat on the river when I hit trips and knocked me out.

As to Jay (and the subsequent others who agree with him)

Originally Posted by jayccin

play AA all in always!!!!

if DS would have went all in pre flop peaches would have folded

To each his (or her) own. I'm not here to tell anyone how to play. But, although you make a good point (he would have won that hand had he gone in pre flop), I think it's that thinking that motivates people to go all in at unnecessary times.

[The only time (other than extremely donk opponent exceptions) that you should go all in is when the appropriate sized bet (say pot ish sized) will commit your stack anyway.] <--- but that's a different soap box

Anyway... if poker were a game of tallying wins and losses, then "all in" WOULD be the best move, but since it is a game of either amount of chips or money (tables) or survival (tourneys), which stills requires the most chips, it goes beyond just a win or a loss. In this case if he goes all in he wins the blinds 99% of the time. If he plays like he did he will win or lose bigger pots than just the blinds, but he will win 3 to 4 times as often as he loses. If someone has any post flop skills whatsoever I'd recommend using it instead of having your mind completely made up with only 2 of 7 cards determined.

So let's have 5 trial runs for each option. "All in" all 5 times he wins 15 lousy chips. Standard raise he should get an average of one caller like he did. The pot is 300 chips. The pot can be taken down there or can triple if it gets to the river. So we'll say 600 chips to be won or lost on average post flop. He wins 4 of those pots and loses one. So 5*15= 75 or 4*600 - 600= 1800. I think 1800 chips verses 75 chips makes it clear. He risks losing yes, but that's poker. He still needs to make the most of a good hand and make reads as to when he should either get away or control the size of the pot.

If you had the choice of me giving you a dime or rolling dice and paying you a dollar on everything but a 7 but you pay me a dollar if I roll a 7, which would you chose? A dime is a safe bet, but the wrong choice. If we did it 10 times you'd make a dollar chosing the dime, but you'd make an average of $7 with the dice.

Sometime you gotta roll the dice

[daddyspoon]

you have to laugh really. loads of threads/posts about bad play here and there. the majority of these posts about AA is it go all in

[tattmando]

play Aces with a handgun. shoot the donk that beats u with 2 6 offsuit poc.hide the body, reload.

[DukeOfDeath]

Originally Posted by tattmando

play Aces with a handgun. shoot the donk that beats u with 2 6 offsuit poc.hide the body, reload.

reload the gun or your chips?

[tattmando]

Originally Posted by DukeOfDeath

reload the gun or your chips?

both lol.