If it's not worth raising it's not worth calling

[DukeOfDeath]

I think one of the best "next level" plays is learning to raise. Once you get down the basic odds and learning how to read players, learning to stay away from the limp is the next best thing. I see even some of the better OP66ers limp a lot. I've seen it be profitable some, but I think learning to be more tight aggressive could benefit many players. I've heard many pros say, "If it's not worth raising it's not worth playing" (or calling). Now I'll admit I know there are exceptions. If you are at a 10 seater, on the button, everyone limps in before you, and you're holding pocket 4s, I would limp. And Kev made a point in a recent thread that limping can be a move to throw in occasionally to keep your game from being transparent. But if you have a strong hand you lose value, and if it's weak you pretty much have to get lucky anyway. To use the previous example of limping Js from early position here's a recent hand I played:

To preface it, there had been a lot of limping, and a lot of post flop action with very weak hands. Peedle was getting some of the best of it against MDKiller. I had been playing tight and folding the best hand quite a bit. So I decided to raise thinking I might get respect and if not I could back down cheap and try it again later with better cards knowing I'll likely get paid off.

Everleaf Gaming Game #272582177
***** Hand history for game #272582177 *****
Blinds $0.02/$0.04 NL Hold'em - 2011/05/22 - 02:45:46
Table Central Park XV
Seat 2
Total number of players: 10
Seat 1: BugKiller ( $ 2.41 USD )
Seat 2: MDKILLER69 ( $ 5.81 USD )
Seat 3: peedle ( $ 5.57 USD )
Seat 4: MZombie ( $ 4.28 USD )
Seat 5: gollfbum ( $ 3.20 USD )
Seat 6: k_hicks ( $ 8.20 USD )
Seat 7: TuffDonkey ( $ 5.66 USD )
Seat 8: ballandchain ( $ 0.64 USD )
Seat 9: DukeOfDeath ( $ 3.90 USD )
Seat 10: laogan ( $ 1.94 USD )
peedle: posts $ 0.02 USD]
MZombie: posts $ 0.04 USD]
ballandchain sits out
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to DukeOfDeath ]
gollfbum folds
k_hicks $ 0.04 USD]
TuffDonkey folds
DukeOfDeath $ 0.14 USD]
laogan folds
BugKiller folds
MDKILLER69 folds
peedle $ 0.12 USD]
MZombie folds
k_hicks $ 0.10 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** ]
peedle checks
k_hicks checks
DukeOfDeath: $ 0.25 USD]
peedle $ 0.25 USD]
k_hicks $ 0.25 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** ]
peedle checks
k_hicks checks
DukeOfDeath: $ 0.50 USD]
peedle folds
k_hicks $ 0.50 USD]
** Dealing River ** ]
k_hicks checks
DukeOfDeath checks
DukeOfDeath shows ] two pairs, kings and queens
k_hicks does not show cards
DukeOfDeath wins $ 2.10 USD from main pot with two pairs, kings and queens ]

So I realize I made the move with a crap hand and basically sucked out on k_hicks, but this is the perfect example of how limping Js (which is what he had upon reviewing hand history) UTG (or UTG+1) is usually bad news bears. If he had raised I would have folded. If I did call it was likely with a suited connector, smaller pocket pair, or maybe some suited/connected/gapping high cards. He'll usually win the pot with the early pos. raise, and if not he can continuation bet and take it down on most flops since he'll at most have 3 opponents and can easily represent an A,K, or Q if one comes and have an over pair if it does not. If he gets raised by a later position, he can lay down, shove, or call depending on who is raising and from where.

All in all, it's easy to fold 72 or 84 off in early position, but any other cards is a challenge for most. I realize it's hard to fold an A or any suited cards knowing the flop could be great for you. But I think for every time you fold 72 off and kick yourself when you see two 7s on the flop, there are 93 times (did the math) where there won't be two 7s. So unless there's a guarantee that 92 other BBs are going into the pot AND no one raises you out preflop (and someone doesn't get a full house, straight, flush, or trip 7s higher kicker on your "dummy trips") then it's not profitable. Obviously the odds are better for better hands, but not enough better. You're only flopping that flush draw once in 23 flops (not including being up against better flush draws or not connecting on turn and river).

I'm no expert to poker, but I've found this strategy has helped my game a lot. I know a lot already use it, but wanted to help those who don't. And again if I'm wrong (which I could be) feel free to tell me. I'm all for improving MY game.

See you at the tables,
Duke

[T_B_H]

i had a long and interesting conversation about this with Baz not so long back, and yes totally agree in most cases

especially in free or cash ring table poker, get as many out the hand pre flop as possible

so many wanna see cheap flops and get lucky, and we all know they do sometimes, if ur 3 or 4 bet its an easy fold if ur playing nid suited connectors

play the odds and play ur hand in the correct way and over time you will win more than you loose

[CaptainSandy]

I agree with everything you say about 'limping'; by raising you stop the BB and SB and other limpers hitting 2 pair or better with poor hands.
However, it gets more complicated post flop - the check raise becomes a valuable tool when playing on an aggressive table.

[roo27]

this realy is is quite a advansed discution as yes as a raul "if you think your winning at any given time you should be getting your chips in the pot" BUT this so much depends on who you are playing and it what situation you are in as there are times when its safer to slow play a hand as some times pepol will call with anything and if the situation means you are risking a out drew at a time your not ready to gamble even if you do have the odds it can be better to try and control the betting rather than take down a hand befor all the cards are down. this is why any play and any fold can be the right one at serten situations for exarmple have you ever been in a torny and folded pocket aces pre flop????? i know i have and would againg if the situation called for it.

[DukeOfDeath]

Originally Posted by roo27

this realy is is quite a advansed discution as yes as a raul "if you think your winning at any given time you should be getting your chips in the pot" BUT this so much depends on who you are playing and it what situation you are in as there are times when its safer to slow play a hand as some times pepol will call with anything and if the situation means you are risking a out drew at a time your not ready to gamble even if you do have the odds it can be better to try and control the betting rather than take down a hand befor all the cards are down. this is why any play and any fold can be the right one at serten situations for exarmple have you ever been in a torny and folded pocket aces pre flop????? i know i have and would againg if the situation called for it.

I think you're right about all that, but I'm mainly talking about coming into a pot for the very first time- preflop. Post flop contains many more variables. Yes there are exceptions to the rule, but they are very few for certain hands. And Js early position are one of those hands IMO. But yes "not playing by the book" is a whole other topic of conversation. But in general when people talk about not "playing by the book", that's code for "not playing their best poker". I think if you are going to go against a rule it shouldn't be just because you FEEL like it. It should be with a solid reason/strategy/read. Like in our example a strategy would be: "I know player on button will fold if I raise but if I limp I know he will raise with a weak range so I can get more value with a limp raise". And in general "beyond the rules" poker isn't as effective at the lower levels most of us are at.

And yes I have folded As in tourneys, but never ever ever in a cash game