should i of pushed ?

[roo27]

Blinds 10/20 NL Hold'em - 2009/08/31 - 21:22:37
Table 1
Seat 2
Total number of players: 6
Seat 1: SirOliver ( 1370 )
Seat 2: leocadio ( 1490 )
Seat 3: Guardian_78 ( 1640 )
Seat 4: roo27 ( 1500 )
Seat 5: deadriver ( 1500 )
Seat 6: knobsock ( 1500 )
Guardian_78: posts $ 10]
roo27: posts $ 20]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to roo27 ]
deadriver folds
knobsock $ 20]
SirOliver $ 20]
leocadio $ 20]
Guardian_78 $ 10]
roo27 $ 70]
knobsock $ 70]
SirOliver folds
leocadio $ 70]
Guardian_78 $ 70]
** Dealing Flop ** ]
Guardian_78 checks
roo27: $ 200]
knobsock $ 200]
leocadio folds
Guardian_78 $ 200]
** Dealing Turn ** ]
Guardian_78 checks
roo27: $ 200]
knobsock $ 200]
Guardian_78 $ 200]
** Dealing River ** ]
Guardian_78 checks
roo27 checks
knobsock checks
roo27 shows ]a pair of jacks
knobsock shows ]a flush, king high
Guardian_78 does not show cards
knobsock wins 1580 chips from main pot with a flush, king high ]
as you can see from the hand i was winning at the tern like i thought i might be but didnt push as with 2 callers after the flop was thinking i might of had 1 flush chaser so the jack hitting was a good but worring card as it was if id of pushed at the tern id of probably took the hand but should i of pushed ??????????

[Hondr]

to me even if u had pushed, ud of got called..... and lost even more

[roo27]

Originally Posted by Hondr

to me even if u had pushed, ud of got called..... and lost even more

it was in a cash game so i dont think he'd of called my all in on the tern if id of made one with only a pair of 6s with 2 over cards and 3 clubs on the table. remeber he only hit the flush on river

[Hondr]

but he probably woulda chased for it.... thats all im sayin

[LfcFan]

Just my take on this 1.
Pre flop raise looks right to me.
The bet on the flop was a bad move, you only had A high.
If everybody had checked on the flop, a big bet on the turn might have been a good move to make them think you had flush already or easily beaten knobsock's 66 with pair of jacks.
Not sure if a check on the river was right either.
That said,hondr is probably right,they probably would have called anyway.

[roo27]

Originally Posted by LfcFan

Just my take on this 1.
Pre flop raise looks right to me.
The bet on the flop was a bad move, you only had A high.

cant say i agree with this coment as after my pre flop bet i comsidered this a good flop for me as i was only likely to get a call from someone with a flush drew (so odds in my faver of having the best hand) or poket pair and if i handnt bet the poket pair might of pushed pricing me out of the hand

Originally Posted by LfcFan

If everybody had checked on the flop, a big bet on the turn might have been a good move to make them think you had flush already or easily beaten knobsock's 66 with pair of jacks.
Not sure if a check on the river was right either.

your probably right here if id of bet the river it would of been a tuff call for the 6 clubs

Originally Posted by LfcFan

That said,hondr is probably right,they probably would have called anyway.

this is what i was thinking if id of bet the river i was only going to get called by a winning hand even if it was the right play to of bet
Thanks for your feed back

[T_B_H]

tricky 1 roo, the fact that he was last to play after the river with K flush, and no bet says he was not convinced even then he had the winner.

i'd probably played the same, but maybe be tempted with a bigger bet after the turn.
but risky in a three way pot, incase some had hit flush and pushed over the top of you.

shame we cant see Guardian_78 cards tho, is possible he was ahead till river also

[BlackLava]

In a real money game with so many players in the pot I think we miss some important informations : The number of hands you've played yet with them (seems early in the SNG but worth specifying), the buyin (we could consider a 10 cents buyin could trigger different players than a $10 one), if you've detected fishes at the table yet and how is your image at the table so far

Behind that I don't think the preflop raise was a good one, it's a classic one but I'm more and more thinking what I've read in a poker book a few months ago make sense ( Professional No-Limit Hold 'em: Volume I from ed miller, a book about ring games at first but can be applied to early hands in SNG in my opinion ) : Based on the book each hand must target a stack to pot ratio on flop matching the kind of hand you will have when hitting.
Basically AJ will hit only a top pair top kicker and such hands are much better with a specific stack to pot ratio on flop (let's say a stack only 3 times bigger than pot) OR with very huge stacks compared to pot : It means you aren't betting preflop based on your hand but based on how will look the pot compared to your targeted hand on flop and stacks (the lowest stack implied in the pot must be taken in consideration).
If I apply clearly the advize from Ed Miller, AJ there can be played by raising 200 preflop (aiming for 1 or 2 callers) or only limping bb but a classic 3/4 bet leads to a stack to pot ratio which does not match your target and allow flop thieveries you can't call with your pair.
It does not mean all betting patterns must be modified but it looks like taking time to do that math (approximately) could save some hard to manage situations quite often.

I'm reading the book again nowadays because -to be true- I'm not sure to understand it clearly and what's written go further than simply stack to pot ratio on flop
Just funny to see many hands would be easier with those advices

Summary : I would never had raised with AJ without more tables information and would have perhaps made a big oversized bet if handling more info on other players

[T_B_H]

understand what you say about the fre-flop raise
i think alot of us have got to used to the "bet pot" button, instead of choosing are bets (me included)

[BlackLava]

cool if it makes sense, I'm not sure to understand myself what I've typed

[T_B_H]

well the bet of 70 (raise of 50) pre-flop (from bet pot button) gives the callers behind a "value call" (priced in to call to see the flop) as there already in for 20, so extra 50 into a pot of 170 for 1st caller,240 for 2nd caller,310 for third caller.

where as a 200 fre-flop bet probably would not have got 3 calls

and i'd prefer to play AJ off against 1 other hand only

[roo27]

as for more info it was only a $3 sit and go so normaly a good mix of donks and players that have a bit of game now i play a fuw of these and i belive i have quite a tight repertation there so often get folds to my bets as for notes the only 1 i had on table was on Guardian_78 witch is "only tends to call with "something" but will chace on low anuf bets" 1 of the resons the 3ed club dispite being a jack skaired me.
but i do see you point on the pre flop rase i do think looking back it was to low

[BlackLava]

I see, for sure a 200 preflop raise (10BB) would have no more than 1 or 2 callers in a $3 SNG
Then the pot around 500/600 really means something compared to remaining stacks, you can attack the flop with your pot sized bet with higher fold equity. It makes sense to me to play that way because so many preflop limpers show a real weakness at the table, quite sure your continuation bet is a strong move if as you said you have a tight image so far.

[LfcFan]

Originally Posted by LfcFan

Just my take on this 1.
Pre flop raise looks right to me.
The bet on the flop was a bad move, you only had A high.

Originally Posted by roo27

cant say i agree with this coment as after my pre flop bet i comsidered this a good flop for me as i was only likely to get a call from someone with a flush drew (so odds in my faver of having the best hand) or poket pair and if i handnt bet the poket pair might of pushed pricing me out of the hand

I see your logic, good thinking, it keeps the pressure on your opponent. TY Roo

[xLeCheif]

no offence, but i believe you played this hand totally wrong, your PF raise was way way way too small.
secondly, on flop with that many ppl its time to give up as you've missed.
on the turn, you need to be betting hard once you've hit your hand to get rid of marginal draws, but you once again priced in your opponents