Small Blind Play

[teebs]

Right...Many of us have faced these situations where we pick up a premium hand in the small blind. Everytime this happens, i think ummmmmmm what to do.
If the pots been raised im happy to call out of position and see a flop (unless of course im holding a QQ KK sort of hand, where I'd re raise for value)
BUT.... what if its a limped pot...lets say about 6 players have limped, and you pick up a hand like JJ in the small blind, or even QQ. What to do? If u raise and you get called, and the flop comes and ace or a king your in a bit of a pickle bearing in mind your 1st to act...

So all you fozzys, Dukes, etc....How'd you play premium hands in the small blind???

[DukeOfDeath]

This is a tough one. Honestly if a table has 6 limpers, it usually means it's a weaker table. So you have 3 options:

• flat and hope you can stay the best until the river and it never gets too expensive
• make a proper sized raise (i.e. 9-10BB) hoping to take it down and firing at any but the scariest flops
• just go all in

It depends on your table and how deep stacked you are. I don't think flatting is ever good. And though sometimes it feels like all in is so much easier, I don't think it's best medium to deep stacked. Say you and BB have 100BB. Assuming no one limped with anything JJ+ or AK and will fold to the shove, you have a 97% BB will be worse than AK and JJ+. So you win 7BB 97% of the time and get called by JJ+, AK 3% of the time from the big blind where we win only about 47 1/3 % of the time. So .97*7 + .03*.47*100 -.03*.53*100 = 6.61 BB your average gain with shoving QQ.

So honestly you have to raise enough to "signify" an all in. You want to make it incorrect for any small pocket pair, suited connectors, or random hand to call. If they call anyway, you're good more often than not and winning in the long run.

Yeah it sucks if you raise 15BB and get a couple callers still, but that's kinda what you have to do. And based on how loose or passive your opponents are, play the flop turn and river accordingly. But just realize you are out of position and have to be either willin to give it up or play some serious pot control and be ready for a possible loss.

[T_B_H]

tricky 1

option 1 is raise with JJ/QQ you may have to fold a re-raise tho

optoin 2, limp in and hope to hit a set, a flop like AK4 should be a fold to a bet (unless u know a player will bet with worse) but all those callers you have to expect someone is playing an A prob A rag but ur beaten

[teebs]

Fair enough. But then again you do get some rare occasions where some tricky player will limp UTG or UTG +1 with aces or kings.

How about a pocket pair ranging from 8s to 10s?

Or how about an AK/AQ suited?

Heck...what about Aces and Kings? LOL

Its just such a tricky position to be in...I HATE the small blind so much :P

[T_B_H]

yep some players limp monsters and can be very hard to read

bazzy always tells me is ur gonna call a bet then bet 1st, and alot of the time thats true i think, somefimes tho you like the option to fold after


on that board its about trying to read a player, if u think ur ahead then fire 9we dont always read right)

if u think ur behind or the odds dont warant a call( from a solid player) fold and wait for a better position

a raise from a bluffer tho can doudle u up, is a fine lime

[DukeOfDeath]

Originally Posted by teebs

Fair enough. But then again you do get some rare occasions where some tricky player will limp UTG or UTG +1 with aces or kings. such a small part of their range that you'll still be seeing the flop much stronger. if they were to ONLY limp with those, hands then you can be much more cautious

How about a pocket pair ranging from 8s to 10s? for any given hand it's 8:1 against them hitting a set (at least the number I remember) so if there is less than 8 times the pot size in either of your stacks then they are making a move that favors you in the long run.

Or how about an AK/AQ suited? again based on how they play certain hands I think you can keep an eye on the board and how they play and know the best way to play it

Heck...what about Aces and Kings? LOL wait wasn't this the first question LOL

Its just such a tricky position to be in...I HATE the small blind so much :P

but yes... very very true. So you should do your best to make the smartest play you can yet realize that you'll be dealt better hands in better position in the future and not get too hung up on either wasting a good hand or losing with a good hand now

[teebs]

"Heck...what about Aces and Kings?"
Woooops lol. Cant think straight at....4am! Off to the sack lol

Thx Duke and TBH i'll definately keep this in mind for the future.
Hope to see some more answers from other players aswell

[DukeOfDeath]

Originally Posted by teebs

Thx Duke and TBH i'll definately keep this in mind for the future.
Hope to see some more answers from other players aswell

you're welcome, and I hope to see more answers too. I'd love to hear from Dean or SternSwiss or Baz or Roo.

[T_B_H]

Originally Posted by DukeOfDeath

you're welcome, and I hope to see more answers too. I'd love to hear from Dean or SternSwiss or Baz or Roo.

i'd love to hear from ne nurse when she coming back lmao

[BBOB]

Originally Posted by DukeOfDeath

you're welcome, and I hope to see more answers too. I'd love to hear from Dean or SternSwiss or Baz or Roo.

It depends on who's at the table and how familiar I am with em. Ill not talk strategy lol after my recent run lol. I agree id love to hear those 4 guys opinion in any of these pokerstrategy threads. Ive learned alot from em as have many an Op66er.

[OP66fozzy]

Teebs, for me, I want to keep it simple. Assuming it's a ring or I'm mid stacked or better in a tournament, I'm raising big to isolate and almost certainly following it up with a continuation bet.

I'd rather win a small pot because I have a tight image and everyone folds to it than lose a big pot.

OK, I understand Dukes point in this and other threads about getting value from your premium hands, but as an intermediate level player I repeat, I want to keep it simple, I'll take the smaller pots until I feel more confident about reading players and calculating odds on the fly.

Of course, short stacked in a tourney, it's all going in without hesitation.

[teebs]

Pretty sound advice there Fozzy.
I also read on some poker forum that a 4x or 5x raise, plus, 1x for every limper is usually the "standard" raise... which is pretty much what your option 2 was Duke.

So far then large raises seem to be the way to tackle this tricky situation.
Might make my hand a little transparent though... but then again I guess I'll be happy to win the pot. Obviously much better spots will come up.

[DukeOfDeath]

Originally Posted by OP66fozzy

Teebs, for me, I want to keep it simple. Assuming it's a ring or I'm mid stacked or better in a tournament, I'm raising big to isolate and almost certainly following it up with a continuation bet.

I'd rather win a small pot because I have a tight image and everyone folds to it than lose a big pot.

OK, I understand Dukes point in this and other threads about getting value from your premium hands, but as an intermediate level player I repeat, I want to keep it simple, I'll take the smaller pots until I feel more confident about reading players and calculating odds on the fly.

Of course, short stacked in a tourney, it's all going in without hesitation.

I agree you should get value out of your big hands, but 1 pair isn't necessarily big. It's as good as you can start but not big yet. If you have the best pair (say QQ) going to the flop turn and river against 7 other opponents, you're only gonna be best <29% of the time.

So half of the value is making it valuable... I read a really good article (<---- this should be my catch phrase) on ISOing. Average winning hand when you have QQ and 7 others see the flop with you: 2 pair followed closely by 3 of a kind. You have to have the board pair or hit a Q for this. Also the possibility of straights and flushes is much greater for an opponent with even just a random hand (and those are going to be the big pots too).

If you can isolate to 1 opponent, you are over a 70% favorite and the pot you'll win more often than not will be much bigger too. If you get beat by AA,KK,AK then tough. It's bad play that your opponent limped that. If they win with something worse. It's a suckout. You pretty much are pot committed by a large raise and a c bet and it will work enough times to pay off the times you can get unlucky.

I think you lose value shoving and in other spots trying anything but a standard 3-4X raise or 10-11X 3 bet. But in this spot it's worth the risk of making others fold to find yourself in a better flop situation.

[OP66fozzy]

Damn Duke, I'm sure you are disagreeing with me, but I've reread your last post twice and I'm still not sure where the disagreement is lol.

OR, are you agreeing with me, but making it complicated ??

[ASBO]

JJ is not a great hand in any position. I would call to stay in for the flop, and fold to the first bet if anything higher than a Jack came on the flop. If the flop has a jack and nothing higher, hit the all in button.

[T_B_H]

Originally Posted by ASBO

JJ is not a great hand in any position. I would call to stay in for the flop, and fold to the first bet if anything higher than a Jack came on the flop. If the flop has a jack and nothing higher, hit the all in button.

like this



Everleaf Gaming Game #348030905
***** Hand history for game #348030905 *****
Blinds 10/20 NL Hold'em - 2012/01/19 - 01:17:25
Table 1
Seat 7
Total number of players: 10
Seat 1: memaw ( 2170 Chips )
Seat 2: stevo_58 ( 1590 Chips )
Seat 3: Xtreem1 ( 1480 Chips )
Seat 4: bobohall ( 2035 Chips )
Seat 5: keithpe ( 1200 Chips )
Seat 6: jayccin ( 1455 Chips )
Seat 7: SaratogaNY ( 1455 Chips )
Seat 8: chancetaker3 ( 635 Chips )
Seat 9: teebs ( 1465 Chips )
Seat 10: T_B_H ( 1535 Chips )
chancetaker3: posts 10 Chips]
teebs: posts 20 Chips]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to T_B_H ]
T_B_H 70 Chips]
memaw folds
stevo_58 folds
Xtreem1 folds
bobohall folds
keithpe 70 Chips]
jayccin folds
SaratogaNY 70 Chips]
chancetaker3 60 Chips]
teebs: priced in lol
teebs: naah
teebs folds
** Dealing Flop ** ]
chancetaker3 checks
T_B_H checks
keithpe: 1,130 Chips]
SaratogaNY folds
chancetaker3 565 Chips]
T_B_H folds
** Dealing Turn ** ]
** Dealing River ** ]
keithpe shows ] two pairs, queens and threes
chancetaker3 shows ] a pair of aces
keithpe wins 1430 chips from main pot with two pairs, queens and threes ]

[DukeOfDeath]

Originally Posted by OP66fozzy

Damn Duke, I'm sure you are disagreeing with me, but I've reread your last post twice and I'm still not sure where the disagreement is lol.

OR, are you agreeing with me, but making it complicated ??

I think I was agreeing with you in this situation, that you should make a big raise but not so big it's just a 100 BB shove. I think if you were like "how big can I make it but still expect pocket 5s or JTs or QTo to call?" and then whatever answer you come up with, say 8 or 9 BB, add a few more on top. So I'd say a little more than pot it. If 6 limpers to your SB make it somewhere in the 12-15 BB ball park. If you think 15 BB will get you action still from multiple opponents with random hands, make it even bigger, but hopefully this won't be the case.

The only place we even possibly could be disagreeing would be if you applied this to different situations. I would still raise the same hand the regular amount if first to act. Or if someone raised the limpers, I'd 3 bet it usually. Or if you had a lot of limpers behind but were in position (i.e., had high pocket pair on the button) I wouldn't make it quite as big because of the positional advantage (though I'd still do at least 3-4X +1 per limper)