When to push and who against.

[future2112]

Ive just read thread made by daddyspoon talking about how he became card dead when he reached the final table... he went on to say he was sat next to the chip leader..

my question is this..

is it a good position to be sat next to the chip leader if you are short stacked or is it better be sat away from the chip leader. the reason i ask is because im sure i have read somehere that it is a better to push all-in against someone who has lots of chips becuase they are more likely to call with a semi decent hand apposed to someone who has fewer chips who will only probably call if holding very good cards. therefore your chances of winning are improved if you're up against a semi decent hand.

Also, as a side question.. if lots of players flat call a raise pre flop is it worth betting also into the pot with a medium hand incase you get lucky with the flop and therefore reap a good return because of the amount of chips in the pot.. or would you fold that medium hand for example 9 7 off suit.

hope that makes sense..

fut

[DukeOfDeath]

Very good topic and question. Want to respond just to give it a pre-bump. Have to go to anatomy soon. Love to hear others' response and get to it myself later.

[daddyspoon]

i personally would rather see the chip leader act before i make my move. if i see just a call it makes my decision to push easier. if i see a raise i might think twice. but in that thread i think everyone had more chips than me

if chip leader goes over the top after my shove i know im probably ducked

im 100% self taught tho, never read a book about poker. you do make a good point. i dunno whos right or whos wrong

[DukeOfDeath]

Q1: What to push?

A: AX where X > players left to act and no prior action. Certain pocket pairs

*Cards higher than pocket (e.g. 3 cards higher than J, 6 higher than 8s) times amount of players left to act divided by two is the chance your beat. So with KK on the button (1*2/2= 1% chance someone has AA) with 55 and 4 left to act (8*4/2 = 16% chance you're beat)*

Q: Against whom?

A: Pretty much anyone (because people folding too much means your opponents are giving you free blinds, calling too much means paying you off)

So these are basic guidelines. However, you should change it based on situation. But it's less about cards and opponents in my opinion and more about the tournament structure.

For instance, if it's 4 players left in Ultra Outlaws and top 3 get tourney tickets and you're at 9 BB with 1:45 left at the level I might shove quite tightly. On the other hand if top 10 get paid in a tourney and you are hovering around 38/42 with 9 BB and the blinds raising in less than a minute, I'd shove a little looser.

Basically tournaments are games of survival. Ideally infinite survival (aka 1st place), but sometimes you have to weigh out what's more important. If you are an average stack you don't want to mix it up with a big stack on the bubble without a completely solid hand, especially when you know there are stacks about to bust out.

So where's the best place to sit in regards to big stack? Honestly it depends. Yeah they're more likely to call and pay you off, but they are equally as likely to call and suckout on you and bust you. So it doesn't really matter. I'd prefer directly across the table from them though. That way you don't tend to mix it up with them as often seeing as your just middle position the whole time he/she's in the blinds or on the button. It's like what daddyspoon said, you really want to see what the big stack will do before shoving if possible.

Originally Posted by future2112

Also, as a side question.. if lots of players flat call a raise pre flop is it worth betting also into the pot with a medium hand incase you get lucky with the flop and therefore reap a good return because of the amount of chips in the pot.. or would you fold that medium hand for example 9 7 off suit.

As to that question I'd say this is a bad idea short stacked. If you have 10 BB and you can limp the button you spend a BB and the pot is 10. You aren't going to win even 10% of most average looking hands (7.71% for that 9 7 off suit) and of those you are likely not going to get a lot more money to go in the pot. So it's a long shot at maybe getting a pot that's the same size as a double up anyway. Basically you should save that BB because if you try it a few times to no avail and then the blinds double you suddenly go from 10 BB to barely over 3. If you save your BB for a shove though you have more fold equity and more value in a double up because doubling 10BB is much better than doubling 3. Now if you are on the button and you know the blinds won't raise you and you have pocket 2s and you KNOW that there are players who will pay you off if you hit your set, then yeah. But the other 9 players have an equal if not greater chance at that flop, so why try it unless you are just significantly better at post flop play?

[CaptainSandy]

Originally Posted by future2112

Ive just read thread made by daddyspoon talking about how he became card dead when he reached the final table... he went on to say he was sat next to the chip leader..

my question is this..

is it a good position to be sat next to the chip leader if you are short stacked or is it better be sat away from the chip leader. the reason i ask is because im sure i have read somehere that it is a better to push all-in against someone who has lots of chips becuase they are more likely to call with a semi decent hand apposed to someone who has fewer chips who will only probably call if holding very good cards. therefore your chances of winning are improved if you're up against a semi decent hand.

Also, as a side question.. if lots of players flat call a raise pre flop is it worth betting also into the pot with a medium hand incase you get lucky with the flop and therefore reap a good return because of the amount of chips in the pot.. or would you fold that medium hand for example 9 7 off suit.

hope that makes sense..

fut

I would say if you are short stacked and card dead, as daddyspoon was, you are better off if the dealer is sat to your right; at least then you've got a better chance of bluffing with your dead hands. ie chip leader has already folded, if he's still to go he can afford to call you with a mediocre hand.
If you have a good hand then you want him to your left so he can call your decent hand with his mediocre hand - however my recent experiences suggest the mediocre hand will win, lol.

Regarding 9,7 off suit.........fold to a raise, tbh i wouldn't even flat call it unless i was chip rich.

[jimggoldwing]

Originally Posted by CaptainSandy

Regarding 9,7 off suit.........fold to a raise, tbh i wouldn't even flat call it unless i was chip rich.

I know a certain Moderator who'll play this hand to the hilt... she'll affectionately refer to it as the "Angel Hand"... Of course, I won't name her, for fear of exposing a vulnerable portion of her game!!!

[CaptainSandy]

Originally Posted by jimggoldwing

I know a certain Moderator who'll play this hand to the hilt... she'll affectionately refer to it as the "Angel Hand"... Of course, I won't name her, for fear of exposing a vulnerable portion of her game!!!

Does she live in the Southern Hemisphere?

[DukeOfDeath]

Originally Posted by CaptainSandy

Does she live in the Southern Hemisphere?

you must be talking about AntarcticaAngels. she's good with those 97 hands

[jimggoldwing]

Y'all are just way too smart and sussed me out on this one...

[DreamALot]

Originally Posted by CaptainSandy

If you have a good hand then you want him to your left so he can call your decent hand with his mediocre hand

On a table, hmmmmmmmm, isn't everyone to my left. Then I look the other way, they are all to my right.

Which is it?

[CaptainSandy]

Originally Posted by dreamalot

on a table, hmmmmmmmm, isn't everyone to my left. Then i look the other way, they are all to my right.

Which is it?

d'oh!!!!!!!

[pokerpus]

Originally Posted by future2112

Ive just read thread made by daddyspoon talking about how he became card dead when he reached the final table... he went on to say he was sat next to the chip leader..

my question is this..

is it a good position to be sat next to the chip leader if you are short stacked or is it better be sat away from the chip leader. the reason i ask is because im sure i have read somehere that it is a better to push all-in against someone who has lots of chips becuase they are more likely to call with a semi decent hand apposed to someone who has fewer chips who will only probably call if holding very good cards. therefore your chances of winning are improved if you're up against a semi decent hand.

Also, as a side question.. if lots of players flat call a raise pre flop is it worth betting also into the pot with a medium hand incase you get lucky with the flop and therefore reap a good return because of the amount of chips in the pot.. or would you fold that medium hand for example 9 7 off suit.

hope that makes sense..

fut

i wanna comment about the last part..... O.K. i really pay attention to the players...cards are not the only way to win hands.for one thing if 5 people call the blind,,im calling everytime if its for the blind , if im 4,5 i think it s ggod time to look at the flop if 5 people call, there's probably calling face cards... here's where my lo/str8 hits.,,, if im sitting on K,K,,, i do differnt things with em,,but one thing i love to do is raise the blind,one bet..(if there real small blings i'll go higher,, but just getting two people to call the pre-flop raise,,,watch how fast they fold after flop,,or call on a prayer..(by the way joYa,used to see right thought this with nothoing ever being said),,,he's a great player !!,,i then tryied to change it up and did,,,but we battled,,i can't think of anyone who we each knew what each other was up too, and just battled it out,,,i miss joYa,,,a great !!!@! player....i love playing the people,,and here or differnt thread , someone said folding is hard to do....i think its why i do so well,,my little saying is "i fold my way to victory" im being funny(maybe) but im very serious,,,folding wins me tournys.
ok , and first part now,, i think ur seating is very important and thats we're knowing peoples play helps,,some people i love to have them bet fisrt,,if i m on the left side and have to call,,knowing the same guy further left of me always raises,,its harder to call all the blinds i want to,,,if that person acts before me,,,then i deside after seeing what they did..and if its chip leader,, i see how they got there chips,,did they all in pre flop a bunch and get lucky ? or did they trick people ?i do thin many chip leadeers will make loose calls a game goes on,,especially if they-re a pre=flop all iner.

[DreamALot]

No wonder I am losing of late. I am playing the game all wrong. I look at the chips stacks, my position on the table then my cards. Maybe I should start looking at my cards first then position, then stacks.
It is interesting you bring up preflop and post flop folding Pokerpus. If the bet is the BB, I will almost always match the bet to see the flop and hope of hitting a card or two. Remember, you can't win if your not playing cards.

The problem with dead cards are you (peeps) have a tendency to fall back to your old ways of playing. Probably for most being very conservative. That is not the time to let your opponents know that as they will eat you alive by playing with you with raises and re-raises. I am not suggesting going all in to recoup what you just lost because the odds are againts you winning unless you are one on one with someone. I suggest you play position with (dead card mode) and capitalise on players who play a little loose.

Good luck getting out of the cellar m8t. I see you in the corner with me lol.

[pokerpus]

Originally Posted by DreamALot

No wonder I am losing of late. I am playing the game all wrong. I look at the chips stacks, my position on the table then my cards. Maybe I should start looking at my cards first then position, then stacks.
It is interesting you bring up preflop and post flop folding Pokerpus. If the bet is the BB, I will almost always match the bet to see the flop and hope of hitting a card or two. Remember, you can't win if your not playing cards.

The problem with dead cards are you (peeps) have a tendency to fall back to your old ways of playing. Probably for most being very conservative. That is not the time to let your opponents know that as they will eat you alive by playing with you with raises and re-raises. I am not suggesting going all in to recoup what you just lost because the odds are againts you winning unless you are one on one with someone. I suggest you play position with (dead card mode) and capitalise on players who play a little loose.

Good luck getting out of the cellar m8t. I see you in the corner with me lol.

i just stopped reading to respond to the first half of what u said dream... well here's the good news,,,,, you think about what ur doing.. that right there is great !!!,,adjust all ya want,,, think.. thinking is whats gonna do it. i play players a lot,, i aloso have had a smart guy do same all tourny,,,4-5 hours into game he changes up,,diffrnt dffernt startagy , i do th esam ething,,,gotta shgock em onec in awhile,, see how this whole conversation is ?? the cards are already meeeing less...do u see that.. it gets to be about position bets and eye contact,,,card meen way less at the end..i stay conservative always(well ,, ok i lie too(,,(its poker)... of corse the cardswill get ya there.but any combo,,AA pre flop aint noithin' im always suprized how people think there 2 down cards,,,whatever they may be are the winners... 5 more cards to come folks.
great question and great thread,,,i hope i helped a little.

[rad6]

I really think that it depends first on whom you are playing. Example, I ended up heads up with Mel in the Mammoth last week and knowing Mel as I do, knew that I had to be aggressive first with her and also she had all the chips. So every decent hand I had I raised over $3000 and lady lucky smiled on me and let me win.This time LOL

[pokerpus]

rad , i ve seen you around a long time.. and really this is just what i said,,yopu know mel.(i never played him)
maybe he got u confident that when you make a bet or just call ,,he's got a read on you,,,and maybe it's the other way around ?? my basic point was that [playoing the player , can way more important than ur cards aer..and i like to have the cards to back it up,,,,but its poker right.,.,. ? ,,now i wanna play you !,,,more,,,*~),,, great trhead !!

[jimggoldwing]

Originally Posted by pokerpus

rad , i ve seen you around a long time.. and really this is just what i said,,yopu know mel.(i never played him)
maybe he got u confident that when you make a bet or just call ,,he's got a read on you,,,and maybe it's the other way around ?? my basic point was that [playoing the player , can way more important than ur cards aer..and i like to have the cards to back it up,,,,but its poker right.,.,. ? ,,now i wanna play you !,,,more,,,*~),,, great trhead !!

hahaha, PokerPus... it's been nice knowing you...

I sure hope you never meet up with "Mel" (Dirtygirlie)... "she'll" eat you alive after reading this!

[DukeOfDeath]

Originally Posted by jimggoldwing

hahaha, PokerPus... it's been nice knowing you...

I sure hope you never meet up with "Mel" (Dirtygirlie)... "she'll" eat you alive after reading this!

hahaha pmsl

[outlaw1966]

I always thought that 99% of the time poker was about reading the table and the cards...i have been playing poker a long time now and when i'm playing a real money game i will prob lose a few hands just to try and get a read on a player.
As for trying to read players on op66 free side i think that's a waste of time because its free people will just call with anything.

[DreamALot]

Originally Posted by outlaw1966

I always thought that 99% of the time poker was about reading the table and the cards...i have been playing poker a long time now and when i'm playing a real money game i will prob lose a few hands just to try and get a read on a player.
As for trying to read players on op66 free side i think that's a waste of time because its free people will just call with anything.

I agree with your first half statement but after just playing money side, I see no difference in play as they were playing all kinds of crap.