Who played it right ?

[OP66fozzy]

OK, here is the scenario, later stages of a freeroll, 80 out of 450+ players left, blinds 600/1200, 6 seater tables, average stack around 23-25k.

UTG(47k stack) flat calls with JJ, button(25K stack) raises to 4800 with AKoff, BB(22K stack) goes all-in with AKoff, UTG goes all in, button calls all-in.

Nobodies hand improves on flop, turn or river and JJ eliminates the other 2 players.

Any thoughts on who made the right moves for the right reasons, or bad moves ??

I was one of these players.

[telboy]

my opinion,utg was wrong to flat call,gave himself the option for a cheap flop or fold,buttons raise would not have stopped utg from calling.bb made the best call

[CaptainSandy]

It think UTG possibly flat called hoping for a raise andwas then going to go all in. Calling the all-in after a raise is still a fair call with JJ.
The button raised then saw two massive all-ins which should have made him a little wary. BB's move is pretty straight forward.

So, I would say all moves are acceptable, possibly a fold by the initial raiser.

[Pocket_Ducks]

Originally Posted by CaptainSandy

It think UTG possibly flat called hoping for a raise andwas then going to go all in. Calling the all-in after a raise is still a fair call with JJ.
The button raised then saw two massive all-ins which should have made him a little wary. BB's move is pretty straight forward.

So, I would say all moves are acceptable, possibly a fold by the initial raiser.

I agree with you, captn

I'm guessing you was bb, fozzy?

kwak

[DukeOfDeath]

Originally Posted by telboy

my opinion,utg was wrong to flat call,gave himself the option for a cheap flop or fold,buttons raise would not have stopped utg from calling.bb made the best call

I agree. It depends on how opponents have been playing so far in the tourney. Limping UTG is generally accepted as a bad move (unless you think others limping is highly unlikely and getting raised by an opponent holding a worse hand is likely). Also if the button respects the play of either other opponent, he/she should fold. AK is rarely worse than 50% to win but rarely better either. And a 4-bet that has you covered usually spells disaster.

[stjimmy]

Under the gun was correct in my opinion, it was likely he was gonna be raised in the "under the gun" position. So fozzy, was it you UTG?

[T_B_H]

either the flat call or a raise by UTG (JJ) was ok with me, all depends on table,and with 5 players to act after gives you an easy fold to raises 3 or 4 bets etc:

the buttons raise with AK is pretty standard (3xBB), and so is the BB's all in shove with AK probably hoping 2 eliminate another hand and play his AK against 1 hand only (albeit he knows he's at best on a coin flip)

UTG (JJ) call for me was very risky, there's been a raise and a re-raise, he must have expected atleast at best he was on a coin flip with the potential of being up against a bigger pair 2, and in that situation and only committed very little to the pot then i think JJ is a fold

the button has committed nearly a quarter of his stack already so with AK i can understand the call albeit he is at best on a coin flip, i would have been tempted to shove in the first place instead of the 3x BB raise, however he still had fold equity after his initial raise but if he was prepaired to call the all in why not push in the first place ? because now he knows he's playing 2 other hands instead of maybe 1 so has reduced his odds

[OP66fozzy]

Kev, I'm with you on the analysis.

I would never flat call with JJ ( in any seat on the table ) and would have been expecting the button to call all in also (stack size and blinds pretty much made it inevitable ). Now unless they were some sort of poker genius, there is no way they could have put both other players on AK, so the ODDS were they would lose the hand.

OK, it didn't turn out that way, and 90k chips put them right up near the top of the chip leaders, so it wasn't a BAD play, but personally I thought they had played it the worst of the 3 players.

I was the BB, and when I went all in, I expected to be in a race against the button with a pocket pair or maybe big suited connectors.

If either one had gone all in before me, I would have called, but if they had both gone all in, I would have folded.

[DukeOfDeath]

Originally Posted by OP66fozzy

I was the BB, and when I went all in, I expected to be in a race against the button with a pocket pair or maybe big suited connectors.

I think everyone played it somewhat reasonably (esp. for a freeroll), but you definitely played it best. For a short stack you have two moves: all in or fold, and you aren't folding AK, esp. with only one limp and one raise (and the raise by the button).

UTG: I don't care what others are saying, you don't limp JJ. It gives others pot odds to limp as well (esp. at freeroll) and you never know where you're at from early position AND on any board other than one with a J or low unsuited unconnected cards.

Button: AK is a good hand that you can't limp b/c both blinds WILL call and you'll have a 4 way flop that won't be profitable. Also, I disagree again with others about shoving. At best it gets you 2.5 blinds. At worse you're up against a hand that won't fold. AK should fold in a tournament to any all in against a pair if at all possible. Toss ups are perfect for desperation or comfortable leads, but if there's still tournament to be had and it's a tournament life decision, why would you do that? Esp. if you get 2 shoves behind. What can you hope for? 2 donks making moves? And obviously anyone watching knows Fozzy's know donk. You're up against at least 1 pair or likely one opponent with a pair and another holding another high A which decreases your outs.

Well done, fozzy. Don't be results oriented. You made the right move.

[OP66fozzy]

Duke, thanks for that.

I do have to admit though, I am results orientated, but on the tournament overall, not individual hands.

If I understood what you were saying correctly, had one of the others gone all in before my play, you would have folded. Early in a tournament, if it was a player I knew or one that had been playing sensibly for 15-20 minutes, then I would fold too.

But as we were in the last quarter, I was never going to lay the hand down to an all-in raise. I may have been able to limp through to the lower payouts, but a double up would have put me in a strong position to make the higher payouts. I work on the theory that a 5th, 4th or higher in one tourney and a nowhere in another is better than a couple of minor cash positions in 2 tournies ( expected outcome given the AK is going to be a 50/50 call ). However, having read your post, I am going to consider that theory for a while, it may be time for a change of strategy.

[T_B_H]

Originally Posted by OP66fozzy

I would never flat call with JJ ( in any seat on the table )

Originally Posted by DukeOfDeath

UTG: I don't care what others are saying, you don't limp JJ. It gives others pot odds to limp as well (esp. at freeroll) and you never know where you're at from early position AND on any board other than one with a J or low unsuited unconnected cards.

in principal i agree, however especially in early position you have to play hands differently sometimes or your game is too 1 dimentional

sometimes you have to produce the unexspected,i would play AA or even 67 suited the same sometimes to trap, i do agree tho that fozzy played his hand correct,

[Pocket_Ducks]

Originally Posted by Pocket_Ducks

I'm guessing you was bb, fozzy?

called it

imo the way you play JJ depends purely on 2 things:
mood, and how the action on the table is going at the time..

If there's a lot of raising preflop, I'd either try going in as cheap as possible to see the flop or, depending on chip stack (and mood) sometimes shove all-in like this guy did.
Or if the table's quite tight, then make a raise to throw any hands like K10 or A5 away.

apart from that, i pretty much agree with all logic demonstrated here

kwak

[DukeOfDeath]

Originally Posted by OP66fozzy

If I understood what you were saying correctly, had one of the others gone all in before my play, you would have folded. Early in a tournament, if it was a player I knew or one that had been playing sensibly for 15-20 minutes, then I would fold too.

I don't think an all in call with AK would be the WORST move for a short stack. However, with over 18 BBs you could find a better spot. But if they are moving all in with any two face cards or any two suited connectors then you should probably call. An AJo or AQo is about the best hand to face. But if their all in looks like a pair, a fold is likely best with only a SB committed. It really just comes down to how they're playing. AKA:

Originally Posted by Pocket_Ducks

how the action on the table is going at the time..

And Kev... I agree you shouldn't play too predictably, but I think you can gain dimensions in better ways than limping there. Like bluffing UTG from time to time or playing it passively rather than aggressively post flop. But even against random hands Js aren't winning but 1/3 of the time at a 6-seater. If you have prefect reads and great post flop play then you can turn limping Js UTG into a positive EV play, but that's tough. But again just my humble opinion (with a bit of math)

[T_B_H]

a nice sinario for JJ (limping) is some 1 playing A 10, low flop say 10 6 4, they hit top pair(so they think) and push, ok they have 2 cards to hit the ace but the odds aint good, ur gonna stack them most of the time, so slow playinng JJ can pay dividends, and yep it flop had 2 over cards say like Q K 7, then just fold them, he was SB anyway, cost him 600 to see the flop and and knoew 1 could put him on a hand

[DukeOfDeath]

Originally Posted by T_B_H

he was SB anyway, cost him 600 to see the flop and and knoew 1 could put him on a hand

(JJ wasn't SB it was UTG.)

First of all, yes that might be a good instance where limping works, but it depends on A.) opponent having a particular hand B.) a certain flop and C.)opponent to play it the way you're expecting here. You have to look at the range of situations and how likely each one is. Even in that instance what if someone else limped in with 64c or pocket 4s and stacks YOU. Plus AT is likely to call a raise anyway particularly in blinds and even button. And 2 overcards easy fold, but what about just one? Any A,K,Q can easily be in your opponents range. Or board pair? Or a wet board like connected or suited cards on flop? You either have to fold to everything scary (which will be over half the time) or you are basically crossing your fingers when things get scary. And crossing fingers on a 1 in 3 is not profitable. Now those same boards after you raise to narrow the field are a lot more comfortable. You can fold to most A or K but feel comfortable against random board pairs or "wet" flops.

[DukeOfDeath]

But I do agree that playing a hand differently is good to throw someone off their game or to keep them guessing, but late stages of a tournament isn't the place to try a set up. Just like a stone cold bluff isn't a bad idea in a cash game or deep stacked tourney but with average stack under 20 BB, I would not recommend anything other than profitable plays.

[T_B_H]

yes and no

late stages of a tourney is time to build a big stack (if the oppertunity arrives) for the final table

you can go 2 ways, ultra tight or aggressive