3 bet with JJ would you call ??

[T_B_H]

just like peoples thoughts on this hand, and if u would call the re raise or not in a tournament, or fold and wait for a better situation.

as you see i had jacks in early position and raised nearly 4x BB, at that point i really only wanted to see 1 caller

but was re raised and then another caller which i figured me well priced in to see the flop, i seen no point at that stage to 4 bet(re raise all in) as i was 100% sure both would call anyway and by just calling if i never liked the flop then it was an easy fold

flop came with a flushy board but i hit my jack but i was convinced i was ahead so pushed(never thought any of the other 2 had pocket aces)

looking back now tho i feel u should have binned the jacks preflop after being re raised and another caller as not a great hand to play up against 2 others

Everleaf Gaming Game #296719361
***** Hand history for game #296719361 *****
Blinds 200/400 NL Hold'em - 2011/08/15 - 15:31:47
Table 2
Seat 6
Total number of players: 10
Seat 1: sonyachiful ( 51595 Chips )
Seat 2: oxmartinax7 ( 9545 Chips )
Seat 3: GrafK ( 24913 Chips )
Seat 4: korina001 ( 9525 Chips )
Seat 5: zosia16 ( 12385 Chips )
Seat 6: bunkieri ( 25225 Chips )
Seat 7: CSI ( 31832 Chips )
Seat 8: Piratesx ( 13660 Chips )
Seat 9: MARINO1962 ( 8720 Chips )
Seat 10: T_B_H ( 14500 Chips )
sonyachiful: posts ante [ 50 Chips]
oxmartinax7: posts ante [ 50 Chips]
GrafK: posts ante [ 50 Chips]
korina001: posts ante [ 50 Chips]
zosia16: posts ante [ 50 Chips]
bunkieri: posts ante [ 50 Chips]
CSI: posts ante [ 50 Chips]
Piratesx: posts ante [ 50 Chips]
MARINO1962: posts ante [ 50 Chips]
T_B_H: posts ante [ 50 Chips]
CSI: posts 200 Chips]
Piratesx: posts 400 Chips]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to T_B_H ]
MARINO1962 folds
T_B_H 1,500 Chips]
sonyachiful 5,600 Chips]
oxmartinax7 folds
GrafK 5,600 Chips]
korina001 folds
zosia16 folds
bunkieri folds
CSI folds
Piratesx folds
T_B_H 4,100 Chips]
** Dealing Flop ** ]
T_B_H: 8,850 Chips]
sonyachiful 8,850 Chips]
GrafK folds
** Dealing Turn ** ]
** Dealing River ** ]
sonyachiful shows ] a flush, ace high
T_B_H shows ] three of a kind, jacks
sonyachiful wins 35600 chips from main pot with a flush, ace high ]

[OP66fozzy]

Chip leader at the table re-raised you, he could have just been using his chipstack to bully the table. The flat call clearly gave you odds to call also, but still with fold equity.

Your all-in though, even if he was chasing a club flush, was not big enough to prevent him calling on a purely mathematical basis ( I'm sure DukeofDeath could give you the exact numbers, but I know the odds are there to call if he had pocket clubs ) and you can't blame him for calling with top pair, top kicker.

Just unlucky he hit runner runner on the spades.

I see nothing fundamentally wrong with the play at that stage of a tourney. the blinds and antes would have been going up again and you would have been getting very close to the 10BB position. You start getting too passive and you will just get blinded away, better to go out having hit trips and bet with the best hand than being forced all-in on something much more marginal.

[CherryPie]

tough 1... I would probably have played it like you did... Just the way the cookie crumbles. On another day you woulda won the pot and b sittin on a v nice stack.

[T_B_H]

Originally Posted by CherryPie

Just the way the cookie crumbles.

mmmmmmmmmm COOKIES

[tattmando]

with the ammt of draws to the flop to hit better hand i woulda checked em hoping to see a cheap flop. when the raise came and a call b4 me i woulda dropped em and waited for another chance before being in the 10 BB groove.

[DukeOfDeath]

Originally Posted by OP66fozzy

Chip leader at the table re-raised you, he could have just been using his chipstack to bully the table. The flat call clearly gave you odds to call also, but still with fold equity.

Your all-in though, even if he was chasing a club flush, was not big enough to prevent him calling on a purely mathematical basis ( I'm sure DukeofDeath could give you the exact numbers, but I know the odds are there to call if he had pocket clubs ) and you can't blame him for calling with top pair, top kicker.

Just unlucky he hit runner runner on the spades.

I see nothing fundamentally wrong with the play at that stage of a tourney. the blinds and antes would have been going up again and you would have been getting very close to the 10BB position. You start getting too passive and you will just get blinded away, better to go out having hit trips and bet with the best hand than being forced all-in on something much more marginal.

Funny this is the first post I click on after I get my internet set up at my new place. To answer the odds question: Assuming he put you on a hand like trip Js, trip As, AJ (Aces Up), or maybe another AK (top top), then he'd need 2.53 to 1 to call. He was getting better than 3:1, so easy call (esp. considering you could easily have weaker hands too).

I think the issue (and Kev's original question) is the preflop play. I agree with all that it's tough to decide with an M around 13. It depends a lot on reads, flow of the game, and point in tournament (how close to bubble etc.). In general I think with so little behind you have to shove or fold preflop (and both are defendable lines). But again it's tough and comes down to pure luck for the most part.

Tough break.

[jazzsinger1]

would agree with Duke of Death,either shove your JJ all in or simply fold on a reraise depending on stacks,player reads..if it was a real cash game if i got reraised with JJ in hand,to me its an instant fold..The problem is even if you see the J on the flop,you just get induced to play it and tend to get blnd sighted..but then if you had someone reraising you i would think you may need to put one of them on QQ+ which again depends on the player you playing..

[T_B_H]

start of hand my stack 14500 which was an above average stack and blinds 200/400 and anti 50, so over 30 BB's

however in very poor table positon and loads to act after me so in my opinion pushing all in on my 1st bet was out of the question and would have been extreemly dangerious and also very poor play

however with JJ i'm willing to call a 3x BB raise to see the flop so i'd rather make the raise myself than limp in and allow players to limp in 2 in late position with marginal hands

once having been re raised if i called (and as i was out of position) it was only a J on the flop that would make me continue in the hand.

but calling re raises out of position is extreemly dangerious, funny thing is was talking to a Baz the previous day on that subject and he had pointed out all the pitfalls of doing it, and also all the advantages of calling re raises when IN position.

guess i should have listened to him and folded after the reraise

[DukeOfDeath]

Originally Posted by T_B_H

start of hand my stack 14500 which was an above average stack and blinds 200/400 and anti 50, so over 30 BB's

however in very poor table positon and loads to act after me so in my opinion pushing all in on my 1st bet was out of the question and would have been extreemly dangerious and also very poor play

however with JJ i'm willing to call a 3x BB raise to see the flop so i'd rather make the raise myself than limp in and allow players to limp in 2 in late position with marginal hands

once having been re raised if i called (and as i was out of position) it was only a J on the flop that would make me continue in the hand.

but calling re raises out of position is extreemly dangerious, funny thing is was talking to a Baz the previous day on that subject and he had pointed out all the pitfalls of doing it, and also all the advantages of calling re raises when IN position.

guess i should have listened to him and folded after the reraise

yeah I would not condone open shoving with 30+ BB JJ. No one will call you and you'll win nothing, unless someone has you dominated. Agree with Baz (and what I was originally saying). You can't really call the 3 bet. You could shove it if you think he's loose enough to not have AA and KK there often or fold but not call.

[OP66fozzy]

I'm not so sure about the shove option when there has been a 3 bet followed by another player calling with the chipstack Kev had at that point.

OK just the 3 bet and everyone else folding, fine. But with the 3 better and the subsequent caller still to act, I would envisage the JJ in that specific situation being up against 2 hands ( unlikely GrafK wouldn't call 8.8k into a pot over 30k ).

For me the only options Kev had were to flat call ( and hope for the flop he got ) or fold.

Duke, were you taking GrafK into consideration with your responses ?

[DukeOfDeath]

Originally Posted by OP66fozzy

I'm not so sure about the shove option when there has been a 3 bet followed by another player calling with the chipstack Kev had at that point.

OK just the 3 bet and everyone else folding, fine. But with the 3 better and the subsequent caller still to act, I would envisage the JJ in that specific situation being up against 2 hands ( unlikely GrafK wouldn't call 8.8k into a pot over 30k ).

For me the only options Kev had were to flat call ( and hope for the flop he got ) or fold.

Duke, were you taking GrafK into consideration with your responses ?

No I don't think shove is ideal, but I would take it any day over flatting. I wasn't taking GrafK into consideration when doing the math, and I don't think he's much of an issue.

I think the thing is looking at ideal play verses what you see in play tournaments. When someone flats it looks like they have suited connectors, a small to medium pocket pair, or maybe a couple paint cards. Now pros can do this with monsters to trick you (either bluffing a connected board or slow playing those monsters). But at this level I don't give him much credit. Never say never, but still you can at least say rarely.

Also as far as the 3 bet goes, you are probably ok to think Js are beat by 3 bets. But unless you are against a known tight player this is only the case a portion of the time. Now if you'd been the epitome of tight to this point and so had he, and you think he knew well that you had to raise UTG with a good hand, then yes give him credit. But he's a big stack at a play chip tourney. He could easily have it, but he doesn't HAVE to.

All in all I think folding would be the best line. Shoving a rather far behind second best. Flat calling a dead last.

[rad6]

Wow all the above is really interesting and don't have much of an idea about what you are talking about but if you are talking the cash side these idiots will bet on anything. So I would either play them preflop with an all in and leave it to luck, and narrow the betting field or lay them down and not play them at all. Odds and whatever, doesn't even enter into it with these tomatoes they bet and bluff with anything.

[DukeOfDeath]

Originally Posted by rad6

Wow all the above is really interesting and don't have much of an idea about what you are talking about but if you are talking the cash side these idiots will bet on anything. So I would either play them preflop with an all in and leave it to luck, and narrow the betting field or lay them down and not play them at all. Odds and whatever, doesn't even enter into it with these tomatoes they bet and bluff with anything.

couldn't agree more. You see why they call it a grind though?

[T_B_H]

Originally Posted by DukeOfDeath

No I don't think shove is ideal, but I would take it any day over flatting. I wasn't taking GrafK into consideration when doing the math, and I don't think he's much of an issue.

I think the thing is looking at ideal play verses what you see in play tournaments. When someone flats it looks like they have suited connectors, a small to medium pocket pair, or maybe a couple paint cards. Now pros can do this with monsters to trick you (either bluffing a connected board or slow playing those monsters). But at this level I don't give him much credit. Never say never, but still you can at least say rarely.

Also as far as the 3 bet goes, you are probably ok to think Js are beat by 3 bets. But unless you are against a known tight player this is only the case a portion of the time. Now if you'd been the epitome of tight to this point and so had he, and you think he knew well that you had to raise UTG with a good hand, then yes give him credit. But he's a big stack at a play chip tourney. He could easily have it, but he doesn't HAVE to.

All in all I think folding would be the best line. Shoving a rather far behind second best. Flat calling a dead last.

just for the record it was a cash tournament

[DukeOfDeath]

Originally Posted by T_B_H

just for the record it was a cash tournament

That explains why I didn't recognize the opponents' names. I think cash tournaments (excluding higher buy ins which I haven't observed as much) are polarized. It's pretty similar to play chip tourneys, but you've got a few more rather good player, a lot more really bad players.

[OP66fozzy]

Duke, having analyzed Kevs play, I am interested to read your analysis of sonyachiful's play. What do you think ??? AK suited in position, chip leader, did he do anything wrong ?

[DukeOfDeath]

Originally Posted by OP66fozzy

Duke, having analyzed Kevs play, I am interested to read your analysis of sonyachiful's play. What do you think ??? AK suited in position, chip leader, did he do anything wrong ?

I think he played it perfectly. I might have not raised quite as high on the amount, but still his play was solid in my humple opinion.

[tony48]

i think you played them well if it was me
i would have folded have not won on jj for
last 6 times i have had them hate them.

[DukeOfDeath]

I was watching some WPT 100K buy in tournament and saw a pro get knocked out early because he hit trip Js and stacked off against a guy who had trip Ks. Js are never a sure thing, but better than average. When you do get a piece with them though, it's hard (and sometimes incorrect) to let go.