Bankroll management (use it or not?)

[Pocket_Ducks]

As we know, especially for the money side, it helps to have stringent limits set on how much we stake per game, and how to cut losses should things not go our way - or in laments terms, avoid tilting

Below is a link I found, which clearly defines Bankroll management (BRM) and gives an example how to use it. (Ignore the tracker thing it wants you to buy.. as DukeofDeath has shown, you can graph your performances yourself on excel )

Online Poker Bankroll Management

I also recall a thread Deanreeves made on here, it was very good and showed just how this helpful yet very significant part of your game can help you become more profitable.

To those who think it is not important, I will now use my grandad as an example.

Sometime last year I introduced my grandad to online poker. I have since regretted it, as the consistent losses he makes was surely to be inevitable.

However, as a player, he is not so bad.
Yes maybe he does chase the odd flush too many, and suited cards and Aces do attract him more than they should, but he understands pot odds and knows more often than not when to hold em, and when to fold em.

But the one crucial element in his game he lacks is BRM. I have tried to teach him how to do it, just to limit his losses more than anything () but I can quote him and say "nah i'm not too chuffed about doing all that, it makes no difference to how I play"
And yet the principle role of BRM IS to change how you play!

I would use the term 'cant teach an old dog new tricks', but the concept of BRM has always existed, since poker (or anything involving money!) was originated.

So... maybe for some people, it is more trouble than it is worth?

Discuss

kwak

p.s. I reckon I'm gonna start playing again this weekend, maybe BC 2nite for starters?

[CaptainSandy]

I play most days on the cash side and have never needed to use my own money, nor seen my balance dwindle too much.

This is mainly due to good Bankroll Management.

My rules are simple:-
if my balance is under $100 I only play on 2c/1c rings taking $3 to the table.
if my balance is over $100 I also play on the 10c/5c rings taking $7 to the table.
over $250 I occassionally dabble on the 20c/10 taking $15 to the table, but this usually proves costly, so I might re-assess.

I also try to leave the table once I've doubled my money.

[T_B_H]

alot of players use as a rule of thumb 10XBB max to take to a table however and especially if you multitable i would not recomend taking more than 20XBB of you bankroll to a table

its very easy to get "sucked in" and over commit ur bankroll especially after a bad beat or 2, but you must stay diciplined and build back up (or increase) ur bankroll slowly

of course a nice payout in a big tournament now and again is a great way to boost ur roll, bur use it wisely is my advice

[Pocket_Ducks]

Originally Posted by T_B_H

of course a nice payout in a big tournament now and again is a great way to boost ur roll, bur use it wisely is my advice

Yeah these are what my grandad does a lot..

He'll have a bankroll of $80 one week (it varies so much week after week, he plays hours a day lol).
He'll see a big tourney he likes, oh it's a $8.80 buy-in... it's ok I can afford it ()

Then about 4 hours and 3 rebuys later he's lost almost a third of his bankroll, and the very next day he's depositing more money in

I guess once you hit a certain age you just don't care that much he's in the same room as me, playing an $8.80 tourney as I speak, but it has cost him $24.80 thus far lol, he'll be complaining about getting rivered later on, and his preverbial wheel of failure will keep rolling on.

Oh, what have I done? lol

kwak

[T_B_H]

yes very true, you must take into account re-buys and addons in your roll before entering a tourament

so in essence an $8.80 tournament is potentially 3x that so really ur looking at a roll of close to $500 to sensibaly play then using BRM (unless ur not going to rebuy or add on)

but as we all know the carrot is dangled to with a big payout to enter but please consider if not a freezeout tournament

[telboy]

hi duck leave your grand dad alone,he is having fun .
ive played 3 cash tourneys today,two 1$ and a2$ tourney no wins but about 6 hours of playing for about £3.
im sure your grand dad has his limits of how much he spends,so cheer him on instead of trying to confuse him with bankroll management.

[DukeOfDeath]

If he's putting in an infinitesmally small percentage of his well earned retirement money or something I'd say, "No biggie!" If he doesn't have that much to spare, though, then it's a different issue.

I do think BRM is important, though. I've heard it said that if you follow rules correctly you can technically never go broke.

For example I use Chris Ferguson's rules:

• Never buy into a cash game or a Sit & Go with more than 5 percent of your total bankroll.

• Don't buy into a multi-table tournament for more than 2 percent of your total bankroll.

• If at any time during a No-Limit or Pot-Limit cash-game session the money on the table represents more than 10 percent of your total bankroll, leave the game when the blinds reach you.

So if you follow it strictly, you can never go broke because you can subtract 5% of something forever and it technically never reaches 0. I used this. I always buy in for 100BB at a table, so when I broke $200 I played at a 5c/10c for a $10 buy in and doubled up in 15 minutes. Later that afternoon lost some bad beats while multi tabling and dropped below $200 so moved back down to €0.02/€0.04 6-seaters. AFter some grinding I'm back above the 200 mark.

There are always ups and downs, but with decent play and solid BRM the ups can outweigh the downs. BRM forces you to earn your way up and cushions you on any falls the other direction.

[Pocket_Ducks]

you know what duke, i reckon i'm gonna start sticking to that from now on

I mean I tried before but I used to shrug it off, saying "well a little extra wouldnt hurt" and tbh it is too risky

Following strict BRM is great when it comes to controlling ur bankroll - ok it may take some of the thrill factor away from the game, but it does and will help.

Just call me the DuckOfDeath

kwak

p.s. There is NO reasoning with this man tel I gave up ages ago

[chuckster66]

Is there such a thing as contributing to the delequincy of a granddad,if there is you are guilty(hehe)

[DukeOfDeath]

Originally Posted by Pocket_Ducks

Just call me the DuckOfDeath

kwak

I like it!

[DeborahLee]

Been playing the cash side for a few months now....and still trying to stop myself from going over my limit I've set for each tourney with add-ons.
I've never made a deposit....just play with winnings from an original outlaws game....but by no means am I wealthy lol (yet)
2nd today in a 1.10 freezeout made me 7.25.....think I much prefer the tourneys than the other tables. Even with real money the bingos terrible.
Bank roll management makes me go grrrrr.....when I come up to my tourney limit but feel things are may start to go my way....I have to make myself leave or lose too much. ( we all think our luck will change).
I appreciate the advice in these threads, it does help me, and believe it or not I do take it on board.

[daddyspoon]

bank roll is clearly a good thing. but seeing as all the cash iv made iv made from freerolls ect. i will buy into any game i can afford . if it was my own money id think differently

[DukeOfDeath]

Originally Posted by daddyspoon

bank roll is clearly a good thing. but seeing as all the cash iv made iv made from freerolls ect. i will buy into any game i can afford . if it was my own money id think differently

Yeah and you have every right to as well. I'm the same way. I've never made a deposit on this site. So like you said if I lost everything, I'd just be breaking even. But also look at it this way, if you do lose your money, you have to go back to bingo freerolls where you have to be patient and lucky just to win a buck. I'd rather play within my bankroll and earn my way up to highrollers tourneys than playing highrollers now and risk dropping down to freerolls again.

The way I see it is if the level I'm at is so boring, I should be killing it and winning my way to the next level soon anyway. Otherwise, even though I want to go up, I still have things to learn where I'm at.

And as Deborah said there is still plenty bingo and poor play on the cash side, so I'd much prefer sticking to $2 or $3 freezeouts and 5c/10c and €0.02/€0.04 6-seaters until I can earn my way into higher stakes than playing higher stakes now (not matter how soft the game) and risk having to go back to 1c/2c bingo halls.

[stepoff]

i play 10% and live by that.. that is it for the day, and it is, what it is,,

[daddyspoon]

Originally Posted by DukeOfDeath

Yeah and you have every right to as well. I'm the same way. I've never made a deposit on this site. So like you said if I lost everything, I'd just be breaking even. But also look at it this way, if you do lose your money, you have to go back to bingo freerolls where you have to be patient and lucky just to win a buck. I'd rather play within my bankroll and earn my way up to highrollers tourneys than playing highrollers now and risk dropping down to freerolls again.

The way I see it is if the level I'm at is so boring, I should be killing it and winning my way to the next level soon anyway. Otherwise, even though I want to go up, I still have things to learn where I'm at.

And as Deborah said there is still plenty bingo and poor play on the cash side, so I'd much prefer sticking to $2 or $3 freezeouts and 5c/10c and €0.02/€0.04 6-seaters until I can earn my way into higher stakes than playing higher stakes now (not matter how soft the game) and risk having to go back to 1c/2c bingo halls.

i stay away from the rings and mainly buy into $2 double ups or lower(any thats almost full) bought into a few tournys only to lose on the river or my own frustration/lack of patience. still waiting for that 1 big win. in a sense i am using a bankroll because unless i tilt and hit the rings i cant lose all my "cash". its just not as well thought out as most . even if i did id go via the outlaws tournys which is a real good way of getting started for nothing.

[Xtreem1]

I believe 100% in bankroll managment, fake chips real money both online and in the casino. imho - it is the only way to do it.

X

[future2112]

I have terrible brm. One time i did try and be sensible with how i used my bankroll but i found i was restricting myself from playing certain tournys etc i'd like to have a play in.

I have since come to the conclusion im more than happy to pay into my account a few pounds to enable me to play some higher stacked tournys once in a while. The reason is the way i see it when im out with mates for a weekend i can easily spend £40 in a night. So to pay £5 to join a tourny at the weekend and enjoy myself playing is defo worth doing.

I think brm defo comes into play if you cannot afford to spend a few pounds for a bit of fun or if your a big player like Bazultra or deanreeves.

[DukeOfDeath]

Originally Posted by daddyspoon

i stay away from the rings and mainly buy into $2 double ups or lower(any thats almost full) bought into a few tournys only to lose on the river or my own frustration/lack of patience. still waiting for that 1 big win. in a sense i am using a bankroll because unless i tilt and hit the rings i cant lose all my "cash". its just not as well thought out as most . even if i did id go via the outlaws tournys which is a real good way of getting started for nothing.

Yeah I love outlaws. I got pennies from freerolls. My real start came from turning a few vouchers into Outlaw gold. And as for building once you have a start. I agree that Sit n Go Double Ups are some of the best. However, I feel like the overall concensus of several people trying to protect their bankroll is to stay away from the rings. If you're a tilter that's probably a good idea. But I think if you have a decent game you should give rings another look.

I think people lean towards tourneys because they are more fun. The blinds rise, you can knock someone out, huge prizes await at the top. But also people think it's better for their bankroll. After all the most you can lose is one buy in, and sometimes it takes 2 hours of play to do that. Whereas at a table you can lose a buy in within 15 minutes easily. But honestly, it's better to play cash games than tournaments if you have a solid game at all. Tourneys are deceiving b/c when you win one it's a huge payout and you think it's an easy way to get rich, but you turn around and lose most of the winnings buying in to more tourneys and not realizing it b/c you lose such a small amount at a time.

I'm not trying to tell anyone they have to play cash tables though. Honestly I think tourneys are more fun too and would play more if I had the time. But I've found learning to have success at the table can help your tourney game a ton too. Just my observation.

[Pocket_Ducks]

There are benefits and drawbacks to both tournies and ring games, and the choice should purely be down to circumstance.
e.g. Do I have enough time to realistically join? Am I in the mood for a tourney?

I personally prefer playing ring games, as the blinds stay the same and therefore play is so much more consistent. Because of this, you can have a batter read on the game.
Furthermore, I find it easier to apply BRM on ring games. Tournies, for me, are something to enter once you have gained enough on the ring tables to enter them.
For example, I could gain $3 in 30-45 minutes on a ring game (on average) and from that enter a $1.10 tourney, knowing I have a couple bucks still made in case I do not cash.

On a personal note, I've prematurely made the decision to withdraw all my monies I currently hold on this site, and build from scratch.
This is because it is a new challenge for me (I have never as of yet built from zero, I have always deposited) and also it puts more retained profits in ducks pocket

So I guess you'll be seeing me on the outlaws and freerolls soon

gl all, happy BRM'ing

kwak

[DukeOfDeath]

Originally Posted by Pocket_Ducks

There are benefits and drawbacks to both tournies and ring games, and the choice should purely be down to circumstance.
e.g. Do I have enough time to realistically join? Am I in the mood for a tourney?

I personally prefer playing ring games, as the blinds stay the same and therefore play is so much more consistent. Because of this, you can have a batter read on the game.
Furthermore, I find it easier to apply BRM on ring games. Tournies, for me, are something to enter once you have gained enough on the ring tables to enter them.
For example, I could gain $3 in 30-45 minutes on a ring game (on average) and from that enter a $1.10 tourney, knowing I have a couple bucks still made in case I do not cash.

Yeah same here. So I usually play tourneys on a weekend afternoon, and if I play during the week it's a quick sit'n'go or a ring game. Good luck on building your bankroll. That's what I've been doing. I'm not rich (yet?) but I had fun along the way.