A possibly controversial statement.

[phattP]

A possibly controversial statement:- ( and a long post, for those who don't like to read too much ).

"The ring table games on OP66 are a pretty accurate representation of real life poker, possibly more so than the tournaments."

There...I've said it. It may be wrong...I'm saying it to get a response, to see what other people think.
I don't play much on the free side tables any more because I don't have enough free time to do it, but I think they are definitely a good learning ground for people who want to learn how to make money at poker. And if that is not your aim... to learn and improve..then why spend so much of your time playing for free?

Now before replying, think about my reasons for that opening statement.. after all, most people hate the rings here -
the 'bingo play', the 'donk calls', the ' bad beats'. The absolutely crazy bets and the number of times someone gets rivered.

I play a lot of home poker. I play with friends at poker evenings, I play at casinos and in pubs and I play against people I don't know well sometimes. Basically, if there's a game going and I have time to play I like to join in. And I often play against the craziest people you're ever likely to play against.

In all those scenarios, I've seen people betting with J2 offsuit and winning ( for example). I've seen people calling down bluffs with just a pair of 6s.
I've seen quads come on the board, flushes winning 3 times in a row. People calling a huge bet and getting lucky on the river.
People going all in with 2 5 os, sometimes winning, sometimes not.

Often it seems to be a case of " I came here to play, not fold all evening", which means there is nearly always someone who will call to the river.
More showdowns equals more chances of those drawing hands hitting equals more chances of 'bad beats' (for the other player as much as for you).

Sound familiar?
ALL those things that people 'hate' about the ring tables happen all the time in real - life cash games I've played.

What very rarely happens in real life, if we play for fun, ( low buy ins ), is people getting really upset about getting beat.

Usually it's the opposite...we all have a laugh and pour another beer. Nobody died....

So... a good question would be - what DO people really hate about the ring tables? Why are there not more of us playing them?

Is it the fact that it's so difficult to win, due to the aggression of some of the players? It takes you out of the cosy comfort zone of playing against friends, that's for sure.

Personally I find the fact that it's difficult to win more of a challenge. I like the fact that if I call and lose I can reload and have a second pop at it.

I like that I can leave the table any time I want to. I like that the blinds don't rise. I like the fact that I can sit out without paying blinds. I like being forced to take risks.

In a tournament you can fold your way into the placings, you can even sit out and get a final table place.( Why do people do that for free chip games? But that's another topic...and I'm sure it happens in real life too to an extent). I have no problem with that.
But on the rings you get the action. People get stuck in. And if you're an action junkie like me, there's no shortage of it.

Notice I didn't say that the standard of play is better or worse on the rings.. only that they are a pretty true to life representation of your average poker games.
( a mixture of the good, the bad and the ugly...or in some cases the handsome...shut up aceman )

The only thing I can see that is not to like about them is losing...so why not give it a go and try harder to make sure you don't lose more than you win? Test your new found skills from time to time, try out moves that you can't afford to try in a big cash game situation.

I would suggest a medium priced 6 top table like 50/100 up to around 300/600 blinds. That way, if you're not getting any cards to work with, you only lose the blinds every 4 or 5 hands, and they won't break the bank the way those steamroller blinds do.

I usually just buy in for 50 x BB, then rebuy if I get down to half my original buy in. Don't leave it too long to rebuy, in case you get that big hand and have nothing left to bet with. One decent hand in 15 is often enough to keep you afloat and more than that will see you with a profit.

Set a time limit for your game, not a win limit.

The 2 player tables are a great place to practice and learn heads up. You will often find yourself playing against an ultra-aggressive opponent. Those are the games I enjoy most. I learned quite a lot from playing these which comes in useful in tourneys if you get to the final 2. ( a different game altogether at that stage ).
Without the experience of playing heads up, how can you finish that tourney in first place? The answer is ..only if you get all the luck.

I hope this doesn't sound like bragging..I'm just using myself as an example because I don't have any others to use..
I have reached the final 2 in tourneys 22 times and won 19 of those. In 2 of the losing 3 I had bad beats. In the other I was so shortstacked that it was all in every hand, until I ran out of luck. Of course I got lucky too, but I'm sure that playing the ring games helped me to get those results and made me a better and more confident player.

I also learned that ... the many times when I didn't make the final table were often down to a lack of patience on my part. Joining a tourney when you have limited time to play is a mistake. I ended up just throwing it away because I wanted or needed to go and do other things. I'm glad I learned that one before I ventured into the cash tourneys, taking my time to decide on bets is a golden rule for me now.

So all in all, I would say that online free poker ring tables have a great part to play in our poker development, and the way other people play ( good and bad ) will always teach us something that we can turn to our advantage in real life.

I believe that, until we breathe life in to the ring tables, this site will remain stagnant - the same old group of players in the 4 tourneys.

As I said, I might well be wrong though... lets have a good discussion about it..

Over to you for your thoughts on this one....I'm looking forward to some of you giving some good posts rather than just dismissing the ring tables out of hand..

[TheTexan]

Well put.

I have moved over to the cash side as I felt that my game had grown strong enough to do so, and I have been punished, and rewarded. I have seen the same play level in the rings as I have many other sites, and in real life (although as you state, in a real life game I have never seen anyone go off the reservation over a bad beat, they just admit it was a poor play and move on).

I have received numerous statements about the level of play and I have said over an over that the level of play is pretty much the same as anywhere else, live or digital. I still believe that. I do look at other sites and see what they are doing and how they are doing it, and I suspect the major difference is familiarity.

If you play against the same people regularly you eventually get a feel for their play and unless they change it up, it becomes a becomes a gab session with some cards rather than a serious game to win in a competition.

A mentor told me that the best way to win is to play tight until you get a feel for the table, given your position in the round, then you can start acting like a donkey (o.k. he used a more colorful word).

Odd are Odds and position is important, but in the end you must be willing to act and risk what you are betting versus the potential reward.

Again just my opinion, and Phatt, another great post!

[teebs]

What a statement LOL!!

Entirely disagree, although I dont play cash games...so in that sense, yes, maybe the rings resemble cash games, although i highly doubt it.

The daily tournies suprisingly have a decent level of poker as the game progresses.
But as you've mentioned, people betting with J2, or people calling down bluffs is typical "pub" poker play. People just come out out to have a drink and play some cards...fair enough.
The only place where I find you CAN get a really good game of poker is at the casino for higher buy ins (tournaments, not cash games). Hands will rarely get to showdown, people play their position, etc etc...

As for the rings, and comparing them to real life poker, it depends what sort of "real life" poker you're talking about... "Pub poker" or proper tournament poker.

[phattP]

Originally Posted by teebs

What a statement LOL!!

Entirely disagree, although I dont play cash games...so in that sense, yes, maybe the rings resemble cash games, although i highly doubt it.

The daily tournies suprisingly have a decent level of poker as the game progresses.
But as you've mentioned, people betting with J2, or people calling down bluffs is typical "pub" poker play. People just come out out to have a drink and play some cards...fair enough.
The only place where I find you CAN get a really good game of poker is at the casino for higher buy ins (tournaments, not cash games). Hands will rarely get to showdown, people play their position, etc etc...

As for the rings, and comparing them to real life poker, it depends what sort of "real life" poker you're talking about... "Pub poker" or proper tournament poker.

I was fairly sure that a lot of people would disagree with my opening statement, that helps to stimulate a discussion so it's all good.

The problem I have here is that I'm not sure which part of the post you entirely disagree with mate.

Is it the bit about bringing life back to OP66, or the bit about me being handsome? ( )

I agree with you that casino poker tournaments ( higher buyins) are generally a good game of poker, but even there you will find people making mistakes, playing drunk, or just getting unlucky.

Tournament poker and ring game poker are 2 different environments, and I wasn't trying to say that a RL cash game is the same as a free online tournament.

The thrust of it was that - all the things that people hate about the ring tables here, happen in RL cash games.( ring table format ).
( Tom Dwan bluffing Phil Ivey out of half a million with 9 high, etc...etc...)

Is it just that most people here prefer the tournament format over the ring games, and if so why?

Is it that they're more comfortable in the 'safer' environment of tournaments, where their losses are limited to their initial buy in?

[teebs]

Originally Posted by phattP

I was fairly sure that a lot of people would disagree with my opening statement, that helps to stimulate a discussion so it's all good.

The problem I have here is that I'm not sure which part of the post you entirely disagree with mate.

Is it the bit about bringing life back to OP66, or the bit about me being handsome? ( )

I agree with you that casino poker tournaments ( higher buyins) are generally a good game of poker, but even there you will find people making mistakes, playing drunk, or just getting unlucky.

Tournament poker and ring game poker are 2 different environments, and I wasn't trying to say that a RL cash game is the same as a free online tournament.

The thrust of it was that - all the things that people hate about the ring tables here, happen in RL cash games.( ring table format ).
( Tom Dwan bluffing Phil Ivey out of half a million with 9 high, etc...etc...)

Is it just that most people here prefer the tournament format over the ring games, and if so why?

Is it that they're more comfortable in the 'safer' environment of tournaments, where their losses are limited to their initial buy in?

The part I was disagreeing with was your opening statement.
I think it all comes down to what people prefer... cash games or tournaments. I for one only play tournaments IRL at higher buy ins. The reason being is not because you can only lose the initial buy in, but because its more suited to my play.
Cash games, in my opinion, are for the "true gamblers"...whereas tournaments are where you'll find the true fundamentals of poker.

P.s That bluff with Dwan and Ivey was very sick...and the sickest part is that Ivey almost called it off with A high.

[DukeOfDeath]

People prefer tournaments over cash games for several reasons:

• many players are gamblers, and gamblers can't help but see the 1st place prize and take a shot
• you rarely see cash games on TV, but tourneys are glorified
• the constant change of pace, the thrill of survival of the fittest and lasting to the end.
• decisions are easier. you can't worry about whether or not to cut your losses or lock your winnings. you just play your stack. Use you big stack to advantage. Shove or fold the short stack
• The ever increasing blinds are like the closing walls of the garbage compactor in A New Hope. You just can't help but have an adrenaline rush

I agree with these ^ people. I find tournaments to be more thrilling. But ring games is the real way to churn a profit. Tournament are like a roller coaster. And I also agree with you that real life cash games are just like the poker I see here (other than 5/10 play chips. real life poker is NOT everyone is all in before every flop).

But here's a concept that the I'm not sure everyone has realized yet: if you can't win at a particular level, it's not because the players are too bad. It's you!

Not to cause offense to anyone, but yes J2 will beat your QQ sometimes, but if you are not coming out ahead in the long run, there's something in your game that needs adjusting.

Donk opponents increase variance but also increase your winnings.

Variance is sharp ups and down. Sharp downs feel like losing, but they shouldn't be consistent. If they are, again who's the donk?

Sorry don't want to offend anyone, but sometimes you have to take a step back and look at the game.

Very good point, P!

[KingPete]

Once upon a time .... back when the sit and go's were popular , I enjoyed playing them .... but the tourneys were always my cup of tea , and have continued to be . I am hardly one of the best players here , but I try . There is a great dedicated group of players that continue to play them , and for the most part they are good people and players who for the most have become my friends . For sure we have some bingo players but that number has reduced over time and left us with mostly people that just want to play a good game .
Unfortunately for me , I am not a fully rounded player ( even after all this time ) , and still play a honest game . Before you all yell at me , and say bluffing is a part of the game ( which sadly it is ) , I know that is my downfall . I will say that the best games I have had , and subsequent heads up , that I have played have been with like minded players. Occasionally this happen and it reinforces my love of this place and the game .
Sadly it doesn't happen enough and my love of the game is slowly draining . It doesn't stop me playing , as it seems I am a sucker for punishment ( unfortunately ) , but there will come a time when I have had enough . I say this because , when I do , my inclination to post you all medals will probably also cease ( much as I love you all , but it has been a labour of love ) . Not a threat .... just a statement ..... I love and care for you all .
Hmmm I am ranting
Anyhow ... back to the topic , yes ring tables were ok when I first started but I rarely venture there in this day and age ( why bother ? ) . I have enough chips to play tourneys forever ( apart from The Mammoth of course lol ) and they are enough for me . I personally hate bluffers and their effect on the game , but that is my problem and I do my best to handle it . And yes , tourneys are my comfort zone ... to an extent ...
Also regarding the medals ... they will cease one day .. it is a laborious job and eventually I will tire of them . I do what I can , but it has been 3 years plus that I have been doing them and I often wonder why .
lol , my little rant is probably off track .... but yes , there is little attraction for ring tables for myself ... only play them when I notice there is a forum demand to fill one ... even then it is a toss up .
Take care my friends .... see you in a tourney ( I hope ) ....... Pete

[phattP]

Great points Duke.

I agree with all the plusses for tournaments. ( love the analogy of the garbage compactor ).

It seems there are maybe 2 distinct groups of player... the gamblers and the tourney lovers.

There does seem to be another group though, who maybe just play tourneys almost out of habit.(?) ( interested question, not fact ).

Your point about not winning at a particular level is very well put.

I tried to say the same thing before...if other players are 'bad', and you're losing to them consistently, what does that say?

I also agree with Tex, that the major difference between tourneys here and elsewhere is familiarity.

I hope no one reads my initial post as an 'anti - tourney' post. I'm just curious to get to the bottom of why more people don't play the ring tables, as I think they are the doorway to the site and newcomers don't get the chance to meet and play a lot of the regulars any more.

When I first started, back in Sept 2008 ( my start date is incorrect ), I joined the ring tables first. There was where I learned the rules and idiosyncracies of poker, as well as getting to know the regular players and having a good laugh.

If I hadn't enjoyed those, I wouldn't have stayed here long enough to discover the tourneys and the forum.

I personally like both tourneys and rings.

[DukeOfDeath]

Originally Posted by phattP

Great points Duke.

I agree with all the plusses for tournaments. ( love the analogy of the garbage compactor ).

It seems there are maybe 2 distinct groups of player... the gamblers and the tourney lovers.

There does seem to be another group though, who maybe just play tourneys almost out of habit.(?) ( interested question, not fact ).

Your point about not winning at a particular level is very well put.

I tried to say the same thing before...if other players are 'bad', and you're losing to them consistently, what does that say?

I also agree with Tex, that the major difference between tourneys here and elsewhere is familiarity.

I hope no one reads my initial post as an 'anti - tourney' post. I'm just curious to get to the bottom of why more people don't play the ring tables, as I think they are the doorway to the site and newcomers don't get the chance to meet and play a lot of the regulars any more.

When I first started, back in Sept 2008 ( my start date is incorrect ), I joined the ring tables first. There was where I learned the rules and idiosyncracies of poker, as well as getting to know the regular players and having a good laugh.

If I hadn't enjoyed those, I wouldn't have stayed here long enough to discover the tourneys and the forum.

I personally like both tourneys and rings.

I agree. I was playing rings for awhile before I stumbled upon freerolls and THEN stumbled upon the dailies (and in my head thought getting on the leader board put you up for cash )

But I sometimes sit down at a ring table and start chatting to hopefully meet new people. I also try to find newbies on the forum, that have only made a post or two. I think it means a lot to try and bring people in and tourneys may scare the newest off at first.

I also am not anti-tourney. In fact, if I have time (which I never do), I prefer tourneys. However, I like you am a strong advocate of playing both (and Sit N Gos... gotta bring those back). I think each aspect of your game helps the others.

Heads up cash really does help you get that gold instead of silver. Playing a cash game 50 BB or 100 or 200 deep let's you player better at those various stages of a tourney.

Anyway, not gonna start rambling. I agree. I like all games. That's that.

[telboy]

i consider myself as a tourney player,cash and free .
i like nothing better than sitting in a deep stack tourney for 4 hours or more trying to win just a few dollars.
i think there is a big difference in tourney play compared to rings.
i have recently started playing cash ring games with capped limit,and find i enjoy these games,they offer a quick fix of poker and a easy chance of bumping up your bank balance.
i never enjoy free ring games ,to me there is no end just keep winning or rebuying in.thats the main difference to me ,in tourneys you get your starting stack to play with when its gone your out,unless its a rebuy.
on your advice panda i will try some ring games with a bigger buy in to see if i enjoy.
nice thread.